From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Wed Sep 19 00:31:33 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 20:31:33 -0400 Subject: [Dev] FWD: libretools 20180829 release announcement References: <871sah0xrx.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Message-ID: <87wori2uqi.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> I'm not sure if this went through before proton.parabola.nu's outage. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Luke Shumaker Subject: libretools 20180829 release announcement Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 15:37:38 -0400 Size: 1319 URL: From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Wed Sep 19 00:32:14 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 20:32:14 -0400 Subject: [Dev] FWD: [FYI] whirlpoolsums is broken, and isn't coming back References: <87y3cnzoea.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Message-ID: <87va722upd.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> I'm not sure if this went through before proton.parabola.nu's outage. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Luke Shumaker Subject: [FYI] whirlpoolsums is broken, and isn't coming back Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 14:43:09 -0400 Size: 1176 URL: From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Wed Sep 19 00:57:55 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 20:57:55 -0400 Subject: [Dev] FWD: [FYI] whirlpoolsums is broken, and isn't coming back In-Reply-To: <87va722upd.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> <87y3cnzoea.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> References: <87y3cnzoea.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> <87va722upd.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Message-ID: <87tvmm2tik.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 14:43:09 -0400, Luke Shumaker wrote: > Hi all, > > A few (15 by my count) packages in abslibre.git use whirlpoolsums as > their source integrity check. > > whirlpoolsums support was broken in makepkg 5.1 (2017-05-28), a bit > over a year ago. Upon realizing that it's been broken for more than a > year, and no one complained in all that time (except for freemor on > #parabola, on Monday), the reaction of upstream is to formally drop > whirlpoolsums support. > > https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/pacman-dev/2018-August/022778.html > > So packages that use whirlpoolsums will need to migrate to a different > checksum algorithm at their next rebuild. I've updated them in git to use sha512sums. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Wed Sep 19 21:23:48 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Dev] proton.parabola.nu outage/loss post-mortem Message-ID: <87musd2nbv.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Hello all, You're probably aware that we just had a rather long outage. TL;DR: - The outage lasted in some form from 2018-08-27 through 2018-09-18 (22days / 3weeks+1day) - The outage was my (Luke Shumaker's) fault - Jonathan "n1md4" Gower / Positive Internet will no longer be donating a server; leaving just winston.parabola.nu - All services have been migrated from proton.parabola.nu to winston.parabola.nu, using backups taken on 2018-08-26. - We are in the process of receiving the full disk image of proton, to potentially recover any mailing list messages or bug tracker changes that occurred in the >24 hours after the backup was taken. I'd like to specifically thank Jonathan Gower for graciously hosting us at Positive Internet all these years--I'm pretty sure since before I was ever a Parabola user, let alone a contributor. I'd also like to thank Bill Auger for helping to fix my mistake and migrate services to winston.parabola.nu, when I was too lazy to. == Part 1: Breakage (2018-08-27) == On the afternoon of Monday 2018-08-27, I performed a software update on both servers, winston.parabola.nu and proton.parabola.nu. In doing so on Proton, I made a stupid mistake, and broke the currently running sshd, making new logins impossible. I did not realize this before logging out. At that time, I had the belief that rebooting it would fix the issue. I emailed Jonathan, asking him to reboot it. At that point, everything user-facing was still functional. Because of a memory leak in Redmine, there's a job that restarts the bug tracker daily. For a reason unknown to me (though I can take guesses), Redmine failed to start after it was stopped the next night. This resulted in HTTP 503 Bad Gateway when visiting . In the ~2 days following being locked out of SSH, for a reason unknown to me, disk use on the / partition grew, and filled the partition. At some point in there, the mailing list stopped accepting new messages. Because of automatic backoff and retry in mail servers, it's difficult to say exactly when that happened (at least until I get access to the logs from the disk image). == Part 2: Downtime (2018-08-30) == On Thursday 2018-08-30, at maybe 5PM EDT, Jonathan rebooted the server, and emailed me to say so: > Rebooted for you now. Sorry, I don't have regular access to email, > else I would reply sooner. Unfortunately, it did not come back up. When I got home at around 11PM EDT, I saw Jonathan's email that he rebooted it, and I saw reports in the IRC channel that it was now entirely offline. I adjusted the DNS to have the appropriate domains point at the other winstons.parabola.nu, and set up an error page explaining that we were having an outage. When I updated the DNS, I shortened the TTL from 24 hours to 5 minutes. However, I (stupidly) did not adjust the SPF records values, or their TTL. This will come up later. I emailed Jonathan thanking him for rebooting it, but that it hadn't come back up, and asking for VNC access in order for me to repair it. Knowing that the drive is qcow2-backed, I knew that he must be using Qemu, so I noted in the email the appropriate flags to tack on to qemu; and that I'd just need the IP address of the host. That Monday, 2018-09-03, he replied that the host didn't have a publicly routable IP address, so that wouldn't work. I replied back suggesting a reverse connection, where the host dialed out to my server, rather than listening for my computer to dial to him. == Part 3: Migration (2018-09-06) == On the evening of 2018-09-06, fed up with more than a week of downtime on the bug tracker, Bill Auger decided that it was time to begin restoring Proton's backups on to Winston. I had been holding my breath for getting Proton fixed (since once Proton was back the migration would be "wasted" work in the long-run). On 2018-09-07, Bill migrated labs.parabola.nu from the backups to Winston. On 2018-09-09, I began contacting the maintainers of RBL lists to have Winston's IP removed from them, so that we would be able to send emails from it. On 2018-09-13, Bill migrated www.parabola.nu from the backups to Winston. Part 4: Sunsetting (2018-09-17) On Monday, 2018-09-17 (2 weeks since the last email), I received a reply from Jonathan: > Hi Luke, > > I think it's time to repo my hosting of repo. I'm in a different > job now, and my time is more demanding, so when problems strike I'm > unlikely to a/ notice or b/ have the time to work on fixing it. > > I would be happy to rsync the 251G vm-103-disk-1.qcow2 file. > > Please let me know what you would like doing with this? > > Thanks, > Jonathan to which I replied: > Hi Jonathan, > > Thanks for responding. I understand. Congratulations/best wishes on > the new job! > > I've set up a temporary rsync server to receive the file. > > host: [redacted] > port: [redacted] > username: [redacted] > password: [redacted] > > That is, something like: > > RSYNC_PASSWORD=[redacted] rsync -vz --progress vm-103-disk-1.qcow2 rsync://[redacted]/ > > It uses a port forwarding setup--I won't be surprised if the > connection dies prematurely; just restart it (that is the beauty of > rsync, after all). > > Thanks for hosting us all these years! > > -- > Thanks and happy hacking, > ~ Luke Shumaker I began migrating over the remaining services: - mailing list and email services - redirector.parabola.nu - XMPP (Prosody) I updated the SPF records at approximately 19:00 EDT on 2018-09-17. In order to avoid hurting the IP's reputation, I avoided starting postfix until at least 2018-09-18 19:00 EDT, because of the SPF record's 24 hour TTL. While migrating the mailing list, I noticed that postfix had already been started. I stopped it until that time. == Part 5: Remaining steps == proton.parabola.nu served as the parabola_nu node in LibreVPN. Before it went down, it was the only operating public LibreVPN node. I've since set up public nodes on winston.parabola.nu (Iceland), mav.lukeshu.com (Chicago, USA), and ramhost.lukeshu.com (Chicago, USA). However, _all_ old LibreVPN nodes will need to be updated to connect to them. As an alternative, since Proton the "parabola.nu:655", as it's public address, we could deploy Proton's old Tinc host key to Winston, and have Winston become parabola_nu. We need to monitor email deliverability for a while. I've verified that Winston's IP is no longer listed in any of the public RBLs, but it may still be on others (like Yahoo!'s). I think the wiki had been set up to proxy emails through Proton; we need to make sure that all web services that send emails to so through Postfix on Winston. PostgreSQL and MariaDB are both running on the same server again. This makes me nervous, because they could mess with eachother's disk access patterns, and grind the system performance to the ground. That said, Winston's disk performance is much better than Proton's was. We'll have to keep an eye on this. If it becomes a problem, maybe we figure out migrating the wiki to Postgres, and stop running MariaDB. Maybe we look for another server, to separate them again. == Part 6: Lessons learned == - Emergency console: Having a VNC/management console is super important. In the past, Jonathan had been very responsive and helpful; but was still a SPOF. And it eventually bit us. Perhaps having an emergency console needs to be a requirement for any new servers, even if it means we turn down some donations? (This makes me a hypocrite, as no one but me has VNC to beefcake.) On the other hand, that SPOF only failed once in the last 4 years... which isn't a terrible MTBF, if we can migrate things to other servers faster. - Backups: On one hand, I'm super psyched that the backups came in useful, and worked as needed, IRL. However, it could have gone better: * Deploying them was tricky, because we had to merge things with an existing server; things would have been easier if we were spinning up a new near-exact-copy of Proton. If we'd (I'd?) moved all of Proton's services to Holo configuration packages (like I have with many of Winston's), this would have been as simple as installing config-parabola-service-FOO and dropping a folder from the backups `/srv`. * We aren't doing full system backups, we didn't back up any config files that were in places other than /etc. Trusting the backup=() arrays, on Winston that's currently: /usr/bin/pinentry /usr/lib/avahi/service-types.db /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py /usr/share/icons/default/index.theme /var/lib/krb5kdc/kdc.conf Fortunately, on Proton I'd had the foresight to replace mm_cfg.py with a symlink to a file in /etc, and I remembered that I'd done that (I've now written a Holo package to codify it). Perhaps we should switch to more full-system backups? * Bill had to wait for me to decrypt the backups to begin restoring things, since they are encrypted to my PGP key, since no one had suggested anything better. I do not like being a SPOF. We need to figure out a better encryption story for the backups. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Thu Sep 20 16:12:45 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 12:12:45 -0400 Subject: [Dev] dbscripts 20180920 release announcement Message-ID: <87lg7w2lmq.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> I've rolled out version 20180920 of Parabola dbscripts. TL;DR: db-import-pkg now uses db-move/db-update/db-remove internally. I've been sitting on this for a while (since the 3rd), but didn't want to roll out an update (especially *this* update) with the bug tracker or mailing list down. Changes from 20180826 to 20180920: - db-import-pkg: * Don't hard-code the list of upstreams, validate an upstream name based on whether a config file for it exists. * Merge the `db-import-${UPSTREAM}.conf` config files in to the `config.local.${UPSTREAM}` config files. The `db-import-*.conf` files no longer exist. . db-import-pkg no longer takes UPSTREAM as an argument. The upstream is now set by setting the DBSCRIPTS_CONFIG= environment variable. . OURPKGPOOL is now called PKGPOOL. . OURSRCPOOL is now called SRCPOOL. * Use db-move/db-update/db-remove to edit the repos, instead of editing them directly. - db-update: Allow package files to be symlinks to packages in a different PKGPOOL. Previously, package files could not be symlinks. This allows for one package pool to inherit files from another. - default configuration: Change the mirror used when importing from Arch Linux ARM. Other notes: - On winston.parabola.nu, I have run: sudo pacman -Sy dbscripts This is a major change in the way db-import-pkg works. If anyone noticed irregularities in the imported repositories, let me know. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Thu Sep 20 16:46:33 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 12:46:33 -0400 Subject: [Dev] dbscripts plan v2 In-Reply-To: <87r2ipkci5.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> References: <87sh36ja6x.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> <87r2ipkci5.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Message-ID: <87k1ng2k2e.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Luke Shumaker wrote: > 2. Use db-{move,update,remove} > > Change: > > Rework `db-import-pkg` to set up a `db-update`-style staging > directory, rather than manipulating the repos directly. At > this point, `db-import-pkg` is still running as `repo`. > However, set `ProtectSystem=strict`, limit it to a staging & > scratch directory, and have it > > ssh localhost DBSCRIPTS_CONFIG=...${UPSTREAM} db-update > > to add/remove packages. This will involve adding an ssh key > for repo. > > Rationale: Obviously, this is a primary objective. Using > ssh+ProtectSystem allows us to ensure that the objective is met. > > Concerns: Testing this will probably involve running an SSH server > in the test suite. I ended up not implementing it with `ssh localhost`. That can come later. But it does now use db-{move,update,remove}, which it simply calls directly. > Timeframe: As soon as I can get it done after step 1; a couple of > days. This has been ready to go since the 3rd, but I didn't want to roll anything out with the bugtracker or mailing list down. > 3. Migrate humans off of repo@ > > Change: Adjust the default `libretools.conf:REPODEST` to be > `ssh://$LIBREUSER at repo.parabola.nu:1863/~/staging/` instead of > `ssh://repo at repo.parabola.nu:1863/~/staging/$LIBREUSER/staging/`. > > Rationale: This will change the user-separated `db-update` from > opt-in (following step 1) to opt-out. > > DISRUPTION: This will make the default configuration unsuitable > for packagers whose local username doesn't match their username in > hackers.git. They will need to manually adjust their > `libretools.conf:REPODEST` to have the correct username. If the user sets REPODEST in their ~/.config/libretools/libretools.conf, then the default HOOKPRERELEASE won't do the right thing. Maybe we say "you'll also need to set HOOKPRERELEASE if you set REPODEST there", or "you need to set REPODEST in /etc". But I don't like those solutions. Things should just work, intuitively. The "obvious" answer is to adjust the expression at HOOKPRERELEASE to be evaluated at call-time, rather than config-parse-time. But, at call-time, it doesn't have REPODEST. I'll have to meditate about what to do. Current status: [x] 1. Set up the `repo` group [eta: 2018-08-23] [x] 2. Use db-{move,update,remove} [eta: 2018-09-20] [-] 3. Migrate humans off of repo@ [eta: ???] [ ] 4. Migrate robots off of repo@ [eta: a week after that] -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Thu Sep 20 21:07:19 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:07:19 -0400 Subject: [Dev] [INTERVENTION MAYBE REQUIRED] libretools 20180920 release announcement Message-ID: <87in2z3mk8.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> I just released libretools 20180920 to [libre] and pushed the source tarball to . This is essentially just a configuration change (plus a few minor changes to support it). The default value of libretools.conf:REPODEST has changed from using the shared repo@ SSH account to using each contributor's separate account when using SSH to upload and release packages. This has been opt-in for a while, and this change switches it to be opt-out. -REPODEST=ssh://repo at repo.parabola.nu:1863/~/staging/$LIBREUSER/staging/ to +REPODEST=ssh://$LIBREUSER at repo.parabola.nu:1863/~/staging/ This makes the default configuration unsuitable for packagers whose local username doesn't match their username in hackers.git. They will need to manually adjust their `libretools.conf:REPODEST` to have the correct username. For example, my hackers.git username is 'lukeshu', but on my PC my username (and thus the value of $LIBREUSER) is 'luke'. Because of this mismatch, I have to put this in my `~/.config/libretools/libretools.conf`: REPODEST=ssh://lukeshu at repo.parabola.nu:1863/~/staging/ Users whose local username matches their hackers.git username shouldn't notice any change or have to modify anything. If anyone has any issues with the change, please report an issue. While the issue is being addressed, you may work around it by reverting REPODEST to its old value. Changes from 20180829 to 20180920: - librerelease: Run HOOKPRERELEASE and HOOKPOSTRELEASE in subshells of the main program; rather than with `bash -c`, so that they have full read-only access to variables. - default configuration: * HOOKPRERELEASE: Switch from double-quotes to single-quotes in order to defer evaluation of the expression on $REPODEST from config-parse-time to call-time. * REPODEST: Change from ssh://repo at repo.parabola.nu:1863/~/staging/$LIBREUSER/staging/ to ssh://$LIBREUSER at repo.parabola.nu:1863/~/staging/ -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 21 05:57:26 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:57:26 -0400 Subject: [Dev] [INTERVENTION MAYBE REQUIRED] libretools 20180920 release announcement In-Reply-To: <87in2z3mk8.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> References: <87in2z3mk8.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Message-ID: <20180921015726.2157e8f8@debian> On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:07:19 -0400 Luke wrote: > For example, my hackers.git username is 'lukeshu', but on my PC my > username (and thus the value of $LIBREUSER) is 'luke'. Because of > this mismatch, I have to put this in my > `~/.config/libretools/libretools.conf`: > > REPODEST=ssh://lukeshu at repo.parabola.nu:1863/~/staging/ why not make LIBREUSER the configurable option and leave REPODEST as is? that seems more semantical From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Fri Sep 21 15:16:24 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:16:24 -0400 Subject: [Dev] [INTERVENTION MAYBE REQUIRED] libretools 20180920 release announcement In-Reply-To: <20180921015726.2157e8f8@debian> References: <87in2z3mk8.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> <20180921015726.2157e8f8@debian> Message-ID: <87h8ii3mpj.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:57:26 -0400, bill-auger wrote: > On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:07:19 -0400 Luke wrote: > > For example, my hackers.git username is 'lukeshu', but on my PC my > > username (and thus the value of $LIBREUSER) is 'luke'. Because of > > this mismatch, I have to put this in my > > `~/.config/libretools/libretools.conf`: > > > > REPODEST=ssh://lukeshu at repo.parabola.nu:1863/~/staging/ > > why not make LIBREUSER the configurable option and leave REPODEST as > is? that seems more semantical That would make sense, but the meaning of LIBREUSER is "the username that is invoking us, maybe behind sudo". If I `sudo librewhatever`, LIBREUSER=luke, not LIBREUSER=root. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Fri Sep 21 15:17:47 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:17:47 -0400 Subject: [Dev] dbscripts 20180920.1 release announcement In-Reply-To: <87lg7w2lmq.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> References: <87lg7w2lmq.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Message-ID: <87fty23mn8.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 12:12:45 -0400, Luke Shumaker wrote: > I've rolled out version 20180920 of Parabola dbscripts. ovruni reported that after db-import at archlinuxarm.service ran, several key packages were missing on ARM. I rolled the server back to v20180826, and restarted db-import at archlinuxarm.service. (That was the only import job that had run since the roll-out.) So now... I've rolled out version 20180920.1 of Parabola dbscripts. ^^ Changes from 20180920 to 20180920.1: - db-move, db-remove: * Instead of "magically" taking either a pkgbase or a pkgname, a pkgname must now be explicitly identified by writing "pkgname=$PKGNAME". - db-import-pkg: * Improve logging * Bugfix: Don't db-remove packages that got updated. It was erroneously including the pkgver when deciding which packages to remove. (I wrote this last night, but apparently never hit "send". My apologies.) -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Fri Sep 21 15:34:11 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:34:11 -0400 Subject: [Dev] dbscripts 20180920.1 release announcement In-Reply-To: <87fty23mn8.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> References: <87lg7w2lmq.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> <87fty23mn8.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Message-ID: <87efdm3lvw.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:17:47 -0400, Luke Shumaker wrote: > I've rolled out version 20180920.1 of Parabola dbscripts. > ^^ The "community" import seems to have gone well, but there were a few problems with the "archlinux32" import. db-update complaining: ==> ERROR: Package community/haskell-gnuidn-0.2.2-66.0-i686.pkg.tar.xz does not have a valid signature So, I tried. $ sudo pacman -U /srv/repo/main/core/os/i686/archlinux32-keyring-20180603-1.0-any.pkg.tar.xz But that hung, so I: $ sudo killall gpg-agent dirmngr $ sudo rm -rf /etc/pacman.d/gnupg /etc/pacman.d/gnupg~ $ sudo pacman-key --init $ sudo pacman-key --populate $ sudo pacman-key --refresh-keys $ sudo pacman -U /srv/repo/main/core/os/i686/archlinux32-keyring-20180603-1.0-any.pkg.tar.xz loading packages... :: Import PGP key 4096R/5FDCA472AB93292BC678FD59255A76DB9A12601A, "Erich Eckner (just to sign arch packages) ", created: 2018-04-09? [Y/n] y resolving dependencies... looking for conflicting packages... Package (1) Old Version New Version Net Change archlinux32-keyring 20171113-2 20180603-1.0 0.02 MiB ? $ sudo rm -rf /etc/pacman.d/gnupg $ sudo pacman-key --init $ sudo pacman-key --populate $ sudo pacman-key --refresh-keys So, we need an automated way for archlinux32-keyring to get to other architectures. That issue resolved for the moment, db-update is now complaining: ==> ERROR: Package testing/acl-2.2.53-1.1-i686.pkg.tar.xz does not have a valid packager acl 2.2.53-1.1 and several other packages have `packager = Unknown Packager`, which db-update won't allow. I'v reported this in #archlinux32, and am collecting more information on it to file a detailed bug report with them. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Fri Sep 21 23:03:34 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:03:34 -0400 Subject: [Dev] [INTERVENTION MAYBE REQUIRED] libretools 20180920 release announcement In-Reply-To: <20180921173239.1a708a19@debian> References: <87in2z3mk8.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> <20180921015726.2157e8f8@debian> <87h8ii3mpj.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> <20180921173239.1a708a19@debian> Message-ID: <87d0t6312x.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:32:39 -0400, bill-auger wrote: > > ok i get it - so wouldnt $LIBREUSER always be identical to $USER then? > If you don't use `sudo`, yes. $ man conf.sh CONF.SH(3) libretools Manual CONF.SH(3) ? LIBREUSER If $SUDO_USER is set, then $LIBREUSER is set to that. Otherwise, $LIBREUSER is set to the value of $USER. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Fri Sep 21 23:49:58 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:49:58 -0400 Subject: [Dev] dbscripts 20180921 release announcement Message-ID: <87bm8q2yxl.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> I've rolled out version 20180921 of Parabola dbscripts. This is a minor change to temporarily work around a problem from Arch Linux 32. Changes from 20180920.1 to 20180921: - db-update: When DBSCRIPTS_CONFIG matches "*.archlinux32", demote errors from check_packager() from errors to warnings. This works around the issue that some Arch Linux 32 packages are built with makepkg.conf:PACKAGER unset, which db-update would normally reject. https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/2001 https://bugs.archlinux32.org/index.php?do=details&task_id=52 -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From bill-auger at peers.community Sat Sep 22 22:19:31 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 22:19:31 +0000 Subject: [Dev] personal package repos Message-ID: <20180922221931.10687f8e@peers.community> re: Bug #1666: [parabolaweb]: fails to update https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/1666#change-10363 dev at lists.parabola.nu > The only remaining errors are coming from [~lukeshu]. i think those personal repos should not be searchable on the web - the [*-testing] repos are better used for anything experimental that is intended eventually for the main repos - the personal repos, if used at all, should probably be for dev tools and other what-nots that are not intended to be part of the distro From bill-auger at peers.community Mon Sep 24 08:26:24 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 04:26:24 -0400 Subject: [Dev] recent pbot bugs Message-ID: <20180924042624.05ce5aff@peers.community> i introduced a bug while tweaking pbot a few days ago that broke his ability to store memos - he did say 'certainly'; but you may also remember seeing "WARNING: I HAVE NEVER SEEN "" HERE BEFORE. CHECK YOUR SPELLING." - if so, then the message was not stored - i saw megver hit this yesterday that is fixed now but just to remind anyone who left a memo recently to assume that "whoever" did not and will not get that memo pbot was also suppressing any unregistered user from pasting a missing shared lib error if it had a very long filename - the very long filename matched the GIBBERISH_REGEX in the spam filter - i have allowed those to pass now From megver83 at hyperbola.info Mon Sep 24 14:26:51 2018 From: megver83 at hyperbola.info (Megver83) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 11:26:51 -0300 Subject: [Dev] recent pbot bugs In-Reply-To: <20180924042624.05ce5aff@peers.community> References: <20180924042624.05ce5aff@peers.community> Message-ID: <9eea1d6c-059f-b957-cf30-cc13b916a328@hyperbola.info> El 24/09/18 a las 05:26, bill-auger escribi?: > i introduced a bug while tweaking pbot a few days ago that broke his > ability to store memos - he did say 'certainly'; but you may also > remember seeing "WARNING: I HAVE NEVER SEEN "" HERE BEFORE. CHECK YOUR > SPELLING." - if so, then the message was not stored - i saw megver hit > this yesterday > > that is fixed now but just to remind anyone who left a memo recently to > assume that "whoever" did not and will not get that memo > > pbot was also suppressing any unregistered user from pasting a > missing shared lib error if it had a very long filename - the very long > filename matched the GIBBERISH_REGEX in the spam filter - i have allowed > those to pass now > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > I think this is not fixed completely, but partially. When I say "pbot: tell someone: blablablah" if fails with: WARNING: I HAVE NEVER SEEN "someone:" HERE BEFORE. CHECK YOUR SPELLING. So I've to remove the double dots ":". Plus, it always returns: -pbot- Error: Not able to parse this command: "pbot: tell someone: blablablah" This^ happens with and without the double dots. -- ~Megver83 SIP: megver83 at sip.linphone.org XMPP: megver83 at jabjab.de Tox: megver83 at toxme.io GPG: 0x227CA7C556B2BA78 GNUSocial: @megver82 at quitter.cl Diaspora*: megver83 at diasp.org Matrix: @Megver83:matrix.org PixelFed: https://pixelfed.social/Megver83 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 520 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Tue Sep 25 01:32:52 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 21:32:52 -0400 Subject: [Dev] dbscripts 20180924 release announcement Message-ID: <878t3q2wfv.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> I've rolled out version 20180924 of Parabola dbscripts. This is a bugfix release. Changes from 20180921 to 20180924: - db-import-pkg: * Improve diagnostics; make it clear what output is actually from db-move/db-update/db-remove. This introduces a dependency on the /usr/lib/libretools/chroot/indent program that is distributed as part of libretools. * Implicitly include $PKGPOOL in INHERITS=(), before any of the configured entries in INHERITS=(). This allows it to re-add a previously removed package that hasn't been cleaned by db-cleanup yet . This requires a supporting change in db-update to accept symlinks to $PKGPOOL. - db-update: Previously, it only allowed package files to be symlinks if their target is in a directory under `${FTP_BASE}/pool/` OTHER THAN `${FTP_BASE}/${PKGPOOL}/`. Now, allow files in any directory under `pool/`, including `${PKGPOOL}/`. When such a symlink is encountered, skip the usual checks on the package, as one of them is that no file with that name already exists in ${PKGPOOL}, and it must have passed the other checks anyway, if the target made it in to ${PKGPOOL} to begin with. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Tue Sep 25 01:41:14 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 21:41:14 -0400 Subject: [Dev] recent pbot bugs In-Reply-To: <20180924042624.05ce5aff@peers.community> References: <20180924042624.05ce5aff@peers.community> Message-ID: <877eja2w1x.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 04:26:24 -0400, bill-auger wrote: > ? pbot has crashed twice (and I've restarted him) since you sent that email. $ journalctl --since='2018-09-24 08:26:24' --unit=pbot.service|grep Failed Sep 24 16:15:38 winston.parabola.nu systemd[1]: pbot.service: Failed with result 'exit-code'. Sep 24 23:41:59 winston.parabola.nu systemd[1]: pbot.service: Failed with result 'exit-code'. (the server times are GMT) -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From brettg at posteo.net Tue Sep 25 01:41:23 2018 From: brettg at posteo.net (Brett Gilio) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 20:41:23 -0500 Subject: [Dev] dbscripts 20180924 release announcement In-Reply-To: <878t3q2wfv.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> References: <878t3q2wfv.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Message-ID: <62d3893d-e481-2135-a805-e7fc68ddf3f1@posteo.net> On 09/24/2018 08:32 PM, Luke Shumaker wrote: > I've rolled out version 20180924 of Parabola dbscripts. > > This is a bugfix release. > Thank you for your work, Luke. Brett From bill-auger at peers.community Tue Sep 25 03:25:38 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 23:25:38 -0400 Subject: [Dev] recent pbot bugs In-Reply-To: <9eea1d6c-059f-b957-cf30-cc13b916a328@hyperbola.info> References: <20180924042624.05ce5aff@peers.community> <9eea1d6c-059f-b957-cf30-cc13b916a328@hyperbola.info> Message-ID: <20180924232538.358cf4ca@peers.community> On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 11:26:51 -0300 Megver83 wrote: > So I've to remove the double dots ":". Plus, it always returns: that was the goal actually, to make the ':' character optional for the target nickname - some clients do not add it, if the nick is not the worst word on a line On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 11:26:51 -0300 Megver83 wrote: > -pbot- Error: Not able to parse this command: believe it or not, that is actually a feature, not a bug - theres a config variable to disable it; but xylon had mutated the bot in a way that bypassed the branch that sends that message, so it was not noticed before after becoming familiar with pbot's code, i realized that what he had done was to ignore most of standard features the bot has (such as factoids, last seen, reloading modules, adding new commands) and instead he re-wrote those features and some new ones into a single monolithic file that was re-sourced every minute - that file is only 17KB; but depending on how BASH does memory management, that could be a memory leak of 25MB per day (or 1GB in 40 days) - even if not, i still think it should be refactored essentially, pbot could be entirely replaced with that one script feeding on an ii pipe - none of pbot's bot-like functionality was being used until i created the spam filter module - what ive been doing since then, is preparing to refactor the features out of that monolithic file into proper modules as pbot was design to be used - again, pbot already had many of those features standard; so thats mostly just a matter of enabling them, and migrating the factoids from flat files into pbot's sqlite db (currently unused AFAIK) From nobody at parabola.nu Tue Sep 25 19:17:49 2018 From: nobody at parabola.nu (Parabola Website Notification) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 19:17:49 -0000 Subject: [Dev] Orphan Pcr package [rspamd] marked out-of-date Message-ID: <20180925191749.1084.40336@winston.parabola.nu> korobkov at vinterdalen.se wants to notify you that the following packages may be out-of-date: * rspamd 1.5.8-2 [pcr] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/pcr/i686/rspamd/ * rspamd 1.6.5-1 [pcr] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/pcr/x86_64/rspamd/ The user provided the following additional text: Please, update to the latest 1.8.0 [0] https://rspamd.com/announce/2018/09/24/rspamd-1.8.0.html From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Tue Sep 25 23:31:01 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 19:31:01 -0400 Subject: [Dev] dbscripts 20180925 release announcement Message-ID: <875zyt2lze.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> I've rolled out version 20180925 of Parabola dbscripts. This is a minor-ish housekeeping release. Changes from 20180924 to 20180925: - db-import-keyring: Add this program to import archlinux{32,arm}-keyring separately from db-import-pkg. Previously, these packages had to be copied over via a manual process. - make_individual_torrent: Remove this program, make it part of make_repo_torrents. - make_repo_torrents: * Place the .torrent file alongside the actual package file. Create a symlink to that in the $FTP_BASE/torrents/ location that pacman2pacman looks for them in. This should help to mitigate EXT4-fs performance issues . * Don't clean up old torrents; with the above change, db-cleanup will do that with no extra instruction. * Place symlinks to the torrent file wherever there's a symlink to the package file. This will allow pacman2pacman to migrate away from a massive single pool, which will allow us to migrate away from having to maintain that pool, which will entirely cure the EXT4-fs performance issues . * Make the list of trackers and web-seeds configurable in torrent.conf * Better error handling and reporting. Next steps along this line of development: - Verify that db-import-keyring works as desired, then blacklist archlinuxarm-keyring and archlinux32-keyring to prevent db-import-pkg from importing them. - Edit pacman2pacman to look for torrents in the same location as the plain package file. - Once the revised pacman2pacman has been published for sufficiently long, and there are no more non-symlinks in $FTP_BASE/torrents/, remove support for that directory from make_repo_torrents, and delete the directory. - Potentially integrate .torrent generation into db-update/db-move, to avoid the cost of crawling the repos and avoid the lag of having make_repo_torrents run hourly. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From nobody at parabola.nu Wed Sep 26 00:18:27 2018 From: nobody at parabola.nu (Parabola Website Notification) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 00:18:27 -0000 Subject: [Dev] Orphan Libre package [icedove] marked out-of-date Message-ID: <20180926001827.1082.31096@winston.parabola.nu> nroof at protonmail.com wants to notify you that the following packages may be out-of-date: * icedove 1:52.7.0-3 [libre] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/x86_64/icedove/ * icedove-debug 1:52.7.0-3 [libre] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/i686/icedove-debug/ The user provided the following additional text: Thank you for maintaining this package! New version of Thunderbird is available: https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/60.0/releasenotes/ From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Wed Sep 26 21:18:47 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 17:18:47 -0400 Subject: [Dev] dbscripts 20180925.2 release announcement Message-ID: <87a7o4ufd4.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> I rolled out version 20180925.1 last night and then 20180925.2 this morning of Parabola dbscripts. They fix bugs in 20180925. So much for it being a minor housekeeping release! Changes from 20180925 to 20180925.1: - db-cleanup: Modify to clean up old torrents. With torrents created by make_repo_torrents >=20180925, no modification is necessary; but db-cleanup does need modified to be able to clean up torrents created by older versions. - make_repo_torrents: * Don't keep pressing TORRENTPOOL after a failure (presumably from EXT4-fs crying). * Always try to make a sure a symlink in TORRENTPOOL exists, even if the actual torrent file already exists. This prevents failures in a previous run from stopping it from trying on a subsequent run. - db-import-keyring: Also import PGP signatures. It wasn't, so the call to db-update was failing. We'll see in 1 hour at the next scheduled make_repo_torrents run how those changes went. We'll see in 3 hours at the next scheduled db-import-keyring run how those changes went. We'll see tomorrow morning at the next scheduled db-cleanup run how those changes went. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From pribib at bluehome.net Wed Sep 26 22:05:46 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (Adam Roberts) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 23:05:46 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets Message-ID: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> It is my understanding that if packages do not support free culture then they should be removed from Parabola too, regardless of FSDG. Warsow contains files that are licensed with CC BY-ND and these are distributed with the package. https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/1745 OpenRA has the ability to import "freeware" assets from the CD or download them in game. https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/wiki/Game-Content OpenMW has been patched to remove the ability to import "nonfree assets" from the original Morrowind disc. From the following page: https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/1745 "if it is distributable but not "free culture" then it should be removed from parabola" - bill-auger "parabola is not distributing them so there is probably no freedom issue here" - bill-auger "After a bit of wiki reading it seems that the FSDG allows this as long as it is "non-functional data" Which all of these seem to be to me." freemor The fact that Warsow is permitted seems to suggest distributing nonfree assets doesn't matter. OpenRA seems to suggest that nonfree assets are fine as long as it is sourced outside of Parabola, but then OpenMW seems to contradict this and suggest that even sourcing nonfree assets outside of Parabola is discouraged. These inconsistent and seemingly contradictory viewpoints makes it difficult to report bugs correctly and use the OS as intended. What is the Parabola stance on this? From bill-auger at peers.community Thu Sep 27 01:42:21 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 21:42:21 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> Message-ID: <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 23:05:46 +0100 Adam wrote: > It is my understanding that if packages do not support free culture > then they should be removed from Parabola too, regardless of FSDG. that is correct - the FSDG only requires non-executable binaries to be freely distributable On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 23:05:46 +0100 Adam wrote: > The fact that Warsow is permitted seems to suggest distributing > nonfree assets doesn't matter. i would not say that program was ever "permitted" - the issue on the bug tracker that you quoted from, exists to evaluate that program and remove if it does in fact include non-free files - these things sneak in from arch often and they take time to evaluate - a little non-copyleft artwork is understandably not at the highest priority On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 23:05:46 +0100 Adam wrote: > These inconsistent and seemingly contradictory viewpoints makes it > difficult to report bugs correctly and use the OS as intended. What > is the Parabola stance on this? the definitive answer to that question is what is written on parabola's mission statement https://wiki.parabola.nu/Parabola_Social_Contract "Parabola is Free Culture: All documentation and cultural works included in products of the Parabola project are Free Culture, with the exceptions of: works stating a viewpoint, invariant sections and cover texts. All documentation and cultural works created by or for Parabola are Free Culture, with no exceptions." the strict reading of this hinges on the word "included" - the idea is to avoid distributing anything that is not "free software" or "free culture"; but not to prevent anyone from doing anything - the blacklisting of that one game was probably not to satisfy of the above "promise" but one of the devs wanted to do it anyways in my opinion, i would draw the line between programs that actively index and/or lead you directly to non-free software or media and those that merely allow them to be used if users acquires them on their own - the dev who blacklisted that one game obviously drew that line a bit more broadly - for one thing, the FSDG explicitly forbids leading users directly to non-free software - to me, that includes most third-party package managers, AUR helpers, docker/appimage/flatpack/snaps, and so on; but parabola has those, and there is an open issue about removing or filtering them - i would say that whatever the decision is regarding those should be carried over to media files as well; but that is still up in the air From pribib at bluehome.net Thu Sep 27 02:28:31 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (Adam Roberts) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 03:28:31 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> Message-ID: <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> > i would not say that program was ever "permitted" - the issue on the > bug tracker that you quoted from, exists to evaluate that program and > remove if it does in fact include non-free files - these things > sneak in from arch often and they take time to evaluate - a little > non-copyleft artwork is understandably not at the highest priority Without getting too wrapped up in definitions, from looking at the old releases of Warsow the license change which permitted inclusion as a result of the following issue: https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/1108 is the one that exists between warsow_15 and warsow_20 from the following archives http://sebastian.network/warsow/old_releases/ in which the CC BY-ND is also included. Wikipedia states the following release dates "June 8, 2014 (version 1.51), November 30, 2015 (version 2.0)" both of which are before the 09/26/2016 date that #1108 was reported. If you also consider the fact that the date on the license.txt file (when installing from the repo or the most recent archive available on the Warsow website) is 26/03/2016 it would appear that it was indeed "permitted" after all. > for one thing, the FSDG explicitly forbids leading users directly to > non-free software - to me, that includes most third-party package > managers, AUR helpers, docker/appimage/flatpack/snaps, and so on; but > parabola has those, and there is an open issue about removing or > filtering them - i would say that whatever the decision is regarding > those should be carried over to media files as well; but that is still > up in the air So would this include programs that enable people to import assets? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill-auger at peers.community Thu Sep 27 08:52:14 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 04:52:14 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> Message-ID: <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 03:20:12 +0100 Adam wrote: > So would this include programs that enable people to import assets? importing assets is not the same as indexing them and fetching them on command - any program that can downlaod can "import" - those are nearly synonyms - wget http://blobs.com/nonfree.jpg is "importing assets"; but thats no reason to remove wget from the repos - the key thing is that wget did not help search or suggest or constrain you what can be downloaded and what can not - clicking any link in a web browser is "importing assets" - the difference is whether or not that program suggested, fetched, and installed them automatically; for example like firefox's built-in add-ons GUI does - parabola has to remove that feature there is an article on the parabola wiki that draws those lines a bit more clearly https://wiki.parabola.nu/Degrees_of_Non-Free_Software_Toleration From pribib at bluehome.net Thu Sep 27 09:43:04 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 10:43:04 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> Message-ID: <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> I think it is clear I am referring to programs like the ones included in the packages I have already mentioned - OpenRa and OpenMW. When you first open OpenRa it gives you two options, both of which "fetch .. on demand" some "freeware" and there is a quit option which to me would seem that it is "suggesting", "fetching" and "installing them automatically" and should also be removed from Parabola. Is the OpenMW importer "directly leading to non-free software" because its purpose is to import non free artwork, or is it "merely allow them to be used if users acquires them on their own" as it is not fetching them on command? You highlight the distinction by saying "importing assets is not the same as indexing them and fetching them on command" yet for some reason there is a program that downloads assets from a server automatically in the repo while the one that arguably only imports the assets when a user has acquired them on their own has been specifically patched to remove this functionality. I think that because there are evidently developers who are or have been drawing the line at different points it would be good to get some confirmation from other developers on where this line is by using the examples we have to hand, even if only to say "i agree with bill-auger" so that users can continue to create appropriate package requests, bug reports and the workload required to assist Parabola in being what it wants to be. On 27/09/18 09:52, bill-auger wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 03:20:12 +0100 Adam wrote: >> So would this include programs that enable people to import assets? > importing assets is not the same as indexing them and fetching them on > command - any program that can downlaod can "import" - those are nearly > synonyms - wget http://blobs.com/nonfree.jpg is "importing assets"; but > thats no reason to remove wget from the repos - the key thing is that > wget did not help search or suggest or constrain you what can be > downloaded and what can not - clicking any link in a web browser is > "importing assets" - the difference is whether or not that program > suggested, fetched, and installed them automatically; for example like > firefox's built-in add-ons GUI does - parabola has to remove that > feature > > there is an article on the parabola wiki that draws those lines a > bit more clearly > > https://wiki.parabola.nu/Degrees_of_Non-Free_Software_Toleration > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 00:52:27 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 20:52:27 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> Message-ID: <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> all i can say is that there is no freedom bug report for 'openra' - this is the first i have heard of it - if it does what you say then it should probably be removed - do open that bug report and someone will look into it regarding "what parabola wants to" that was codified in the mission statement - i was not party to the discussion or voting that led to its terms but from what i see it was quite extensive - im quite sure that nothing was omitted due to lack of foresight - any glaring omission was probably intentional - in the end what you are really suggesting is to re-open the discussion to modify the "parabola social contract" - that's not a terrible idea but IMHO the thing i would want to change most is the title; because it can only realistically be no more than a "promise" to do our best - to that end, the body of it is pretty good already your suggestion is essentially to apply the full scope of the FSDG to all data files; not only to avoid distributing them but to avoid any mention or assistance finding and installing them - as i said, the implications of that go well beyond some game art - that would entail removing pip, rubygems, npm, docker and countless other such third-party package managers - i am not saying i am against that idea; but it is not to be taken so lightly as a removing handful of games From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 01:18:52 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 21:18:52 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Fw: Parabola stance on game assets Message-ID: <20180927211852.26509788@peers.community> Begin forwarded message: Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 02:03:19 +0100 From: Josh Subject: Re: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets Thought I'd chime in on this, There is a difference between the act of aiding/abetting proprietary stuff and the act of 'physically allowing' the user themselves, to go out (themselves) to seek and use proprietary stuff. The former implies condonement. The latter doesn't. Josh From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 01:26:50 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 02:26:50 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Fw: Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180927211852.26509788@peers.community> References: <20180927211852.26509788@peers.community> Message-ID: <5BAD835A.3010100@gmail.com> On 28/09/18 02:18, bill-auger wrote: > Begin forwarded message: > > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 02:03:19 +0100 > From: Josh > Subject: Re: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets > > > Thought I'd chime in on this, > > There is a difference between the act of aiding/abetting proprietary > stuff and the act of 'physically allowing' the user themselves, to go > out (themselves) to seek and use proprietary stuff. > > The former implies condonement. The latter doesn't. > > Josh > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > Ah thanks bill, thought I had sent to the list! :) From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 01:27:21 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 21:27:21 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Fw: Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180927211852.26509788@peers.community> References: <20180927211852.26509788@peers.community> Message-ID: <20180927212721.6e7a353f@peers.community> On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 21:18:52 -0400 Josh wrote: > There is a difference between the act of aiding/abetting proprietary > stuff and the act of 'physically allowing' the user themselves, to go > out (themselves) to seek and use proprietary stuff. yes that is the gist of the FSDG as it relates to software - the FSDG does not make that distinction for data files though - it only requires those to be freely distributable such as "freeware" i think the suggestion here is to apply that same rigor to all data files as well, in the name of "free culture" - unfortunately, the standard "free culture" definition does not actually do that either - it actually does consider "freeware" to be "free culture"; which renders it quite hollow and redundant in the context of a distro that already adopts the FSDG standards From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 01:37:00 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 02:37:00 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Fw: Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180927212721.6e7a353f@peers.community> References: <20180927211852.26509788@peers.community> <20180927212721.6e7a353f@peers.community> Message-ID: <5BAD85BC.1060703@gmail.com> On 28/09/18 02:27, bill-auger wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 21:18:52 -0400 Josh wrote: >> There is a difference between the act of aiding/abetting proprietary >> stuff and the act of 'physically allowing' the user themselves, to go >> out (themselves) to seek and use proprietary stuff. > > yes that is the gist of the FSDG as it relates to software - the FSDG > does not make that distinction for data files though - it only requires > those to be freely distributable such as "freeware" > > i think the suggestion here is to apply that same rigor to all data > files as well, in the name of "free culture" - unfortunately, the > standard "free culture" definition does not actually do that either - > it actually does consider "freeware" to be "free culture"; which > renders it quite hollow and redundant in the context of a distro that > already adopts the FSDG standards Well from a neutral stance, I would find it somewhat contradictory to see a policy stating code has to retain the ability to be shared, but not the data. Probably know this, but Wikimedia & OpenStreetMap are example projects which benefit from shared data. Can say I honestly prefer Wikipedia to the encyclopedias which were before. Josh From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 01:39:29 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 02:39:29 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Fw: Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BAD85BC.1060703@gmail.com> References: <20180927211852.26509788@peers.community> <20180927212721.6e7a353f@peers.community> <5BAD85BC.1060703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BAD8651.6020305@gmail.com> On 28/09/18 02:37, Josh Branning wrote: > On 28/09/18 02:27, bill-auger wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 21:18:52 -0400 Josh wrote: >>> There is a difference between the act of aiding/abetting proprietary >>> stuff and the act of 'physically allowing' the user themselves, to go >>> out (themselves) to seek and use proprietary stuff. >> >> yes that is the gist of the FSDG as it relates to software - the FSDG >> does not make that distinction for data files though - it only requires >> those to be freely distributable such as "freeware" >> >> i think the suggestion here is to apply that same rigor to all data >> files as well, in the name of "free culture" - unfortunately, the >> standard "free culture" definition does not actually do that either - >> it actually does consider "freeware" to be "free culture"; which >> renders it quite hollow and redundant in the context of a distro that >> already adopts the FSDG standards > > Well from a neutral stance, I would find it somewhat contradictory to > see a policy stating code has to retain the ability to be shared, but > not the data. > > Probably know this, but Wikimedia & OpenStreetMap are example projects > which benefit from shared data. > > Can say I honestly prefer Wikipedia to the encyclopedias which were before. > > Josh Obviously tools for making the assets inc. project files are a bonus, as with schematics / pcb layouts (as with OSHW), for me at least :) Josh From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 02:01:36 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 22:01:36 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Fw: Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BAD8651.6020305@gmail.com> References: <20180927211852.26509788@peers.community> <20180927212721.6e7a353f@peers.community> <5BAD85BC.1060703@gmail.com> <5BAD8651.6020305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180927220136.3159b766@peers.community> On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 02:39:29 +0100 Josh wrote: > Obviously tools for making the assets inc. project files are a bonus, > as with schematics / pcb layouts (as with OSHW), for me at least :) its not just a "bonus" - that is the difference between the the end-user being able to exercise all 4 freedoms - without access to all of the underlying sources and tools, modifications are extremely limited to the crude at best to say those recipes and tools are a bonus to the compiled data is akin to saying that source code and a suitable compiler are a bonus to the also having the pre-compiled binary artifacts of software - when seen in those terms, it becomes clear that those pre-compiled binary artifacts are not even necessary - if you had all of the inputs and tools that created them, you could re-create those artifacts yourself From pribib at bluehome.net Fri Sep 28 02:02:47 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:02:47 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> Message-ID: On 28/09/18 01:52, bill-auger wrote: > all i can say is that there is no freedom bug report for 'openra' - this > is the first i have heard of it - if it does what you say then it > should probably be removed - do open that bug report and someone will > look into it I would love to make a bug report but it would also appear that even you yourself do not have a clear understanding of Parabola's free cultural rule. You state here that it is perfectly fine for such programs to exist within the repos because Parabola is not distributing them, yet now say it should probably be removed. "parabola is not distributing them so there is probably no freedom issue here" https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/1745 Even if the stance on free cultural works has changed within the past 5 months since that statement was made, there are still no clearly definitions anywhere. > regarding "what parabola wants to" that was codified in the mission > statement - i was not party to the discussion or voting that led to its > terms but from what i see it was quite extensive - im quite sure that > nothing was omitted due to lack of foresight - any glaring omission > was probably intentional - in the end what you are really suggesting is > to re-open the discussion to modify the "parabola social contract" - > that's not a terrible idea but IMHO the thing i would want to change > most is the title; because it can only realistically be no more than a > "promise" to do our best - to that end, the body of it is pretty good > already > The questions I have raised should not be considered to be suggestive of a particular viewpoint and are merely a result of my inability to find anything clearly stated so far. I am requesting some referable examples (using real packages like the ones mentioned) of the extent to which Parabola chooses to implement its endorsement of free cultural works only. The social contract links to https://freedomdefined.org/Definition and from what I can gather there does not appear to be anything on this page referencing endorsing the ability to import non-free artwork, this seems to be something certain developers Parabola have decided on its own based upon emulation of the FSDG. I would think that if it were already clearly defined then it would be trivial to say, "OpenRA applies because of x, see link:... OpenMW does not apply because of y, see link:..." but this does not appear to be the case. > your suggestion is essentially to apply the full scope of the > FSDG to all data files; not only to avoid distributing them but to > avoid any mention or assistance finding and installing them - as i > said, the implications of that go well beyond some game art - that would > entail removing pip, rubygems, npm, docker and countless other such > third-party package managers - i am not saying i am against that idea; > but it is not to be taken so lightly as a removing handful of games From what I can understand that appears to be your suggestion, not mine. My discussion of drawing the line at FSDG emulation and applying it to all data files in an effort to avoid mention and assistance in finding them is based upon the opinion you stated here "i would draw the line between programs that actively index and/or lead you directly to non-free software or media and those that merely allow them to be used if users acquires them on their own" Referring to the social contract might seem to be enough, but as is evident by the specific removal of the ability to import assets into OpenMW, there are certain developers within Parabola who are/have been drawing the line differently to the definition on that site and instead using FSDG. At present we only have the opinion of bill-auger as a dev which is why I strongly urge other developers to make their opinions known as to where the line should be drawn. > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 02:12:51 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:12:51 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> Message-ID: <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> > I strongly urge other developers to make their opinions known as to > where the line should be drawn. Probably a consensus needs to be reached about Whether it's ... 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. ... and ... 2) OK or NOT OK to link to non-free assets. From pribib at bluehome.net Fri Sep 28 02:18:36 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:18:36 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: Perhaps the following? 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. (e.g. Warsow) ?... and ... 2) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to obtain non-free assets. (e.g. OpenRA) 3) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to make use of non-free assets. (Whether this be importing into a game engine or something else, e.g. OpenMW) While a program like wget may be able to "import assets" it should not be compared to programs whose primary reason for existence is to import non-free assets. On 28/09/18 03:12, Josh Branning wrote: >> I strongly urge other developers to make their opinions known as to >> where the line should be drawn. > > Probably a consensus needs to be reached about > > Whether it's ... > > 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. > ?... and ... > 2) OK or NOT OK to link to non-free assets. > > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 02:23:55 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:23:55 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> Re. the questions; I was going under the assumption that if it's not OK it shouldn't be included in parabola. On 28/09/18 03:18, pribib wrote: > Perhaps the following? > > 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. (e.g. Warsow) > ... and ... > 2) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to obtain > non-free assets. (e.g. OpenRA) > > 3) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to make > use of non-free assets. (Whether this be importing into a game engine or > something else, e.g. OpenMW) > > > While a program like wget may be able to "import assets" it should not > be compared to programs whose primary reason for existence is to import > non-free assets. > > > On 28/09/18 03:12, Josh Branning wrote: >>> I strongly urge other developers to make their opinions known as to >>> where the line should be drawn. >> >> Probably a consensus needs to be reached about >> >> Whether it's ... >> >> 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. >> ... and ... >> 2) OK or NOT OK to link to non-free assets. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dev mailing list >> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From pribib at bluehome.net Fri Sep 28 02:33:24 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:33:24 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> It would be a real shame for projects such as the following to not even be considered due to a lack of clarity as to what extent Parabola is implementing it's free cultural work policy. https://github.com/rwengine/openrw https://github.com/SFTtech/openage https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenLoco https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2 On 28/09/18 03:23, Josh Branning wrote: > Re. the questions; I was going under the assumption that if it's not > OK it shouldn't be included in parabola. > > On 28/09/18 03:18, pribib wrote: >> Perhaps the following? >> >> 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. (e.g. Warsow) >> ? ... and ... >> 2) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to obtain >> non-free assets. (e.g. OpenRA) >> >> 3) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to make >> use of non-free assets. (Whether this be importing into a game engine or >> something else, e.g. OpenMW) >> >> >> While a program like wget may be able to "import assets" it should not >> be compared to programs whose primary reason for existence is to import >> non-free assets. >> >> >> On 28/09/18 03:12, Josh Branning wrote: >>>> I strongly urge other developers to make their opinions known as to >>>> where the line should be drawn. >>> >>> Probably a consensus needs to be reached about >>> >>> Whether it's ... >>> >>> 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. >>> ?... and ... >>> 2) OK or NOT OK to link to non-free assets. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Dev mailing list >>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dev mailing list >> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 02:37:18 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:37:18 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> Message-ID: <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> On 28/09/18 03:33, pribib wrote: > It would be a real shame for projects such as the following to not even > be considered due to a lack of clarity as to what extent Parabola is > implementing it's free cultural work policy. > > https://github.com/rwengine/openrw > https://github.com/SFTtech/openage > https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenLoco > https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2 > > Dunno about these projects, but to answer my own questions in the spirit of parabola: 1) NOT OK 2) NOT OK To answer your questions in the spirit of parabola: 1) NOT OK 2) NOT OK 3) NOT OK ... Though please do not consider this to be a vote. I shall abstain. > On 28/09/18 03:23, Josh Branning wrote: >> Re. the questions; I was going under the assumption that if it's not >> OK it shouldn't be included in parabola. >> >> On 28/09/18 03:18, pribib wrote: >>> Perhaps the following? >>> >>> 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. (e.g. Warsow) >>> ... and ... >>> 2) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to obtain >>> non-free assets. (e.g. OpenRA) >>> >>> 3) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to make >>> use of non-free assets. (Whether this be importing into a game engine or >>> something else, e.g. OpenMW) >>> >>> >>> While a program like wget may be able to "import assets" it should not >>> be compared to programs whose primary reason for existence is to import >>> non-free assets. >>> >>> >>> On 28/09/18 03:12, Josh Branning wrote: >>>>> I strongly urge other developers to make their opinions known as to >>>>> where the line should be drawn. >>>> >>>> Probably a consensus needs to be reached about >>>> >>>> Whether it's ... >>>> >>>> 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. >>>> ... and ... >>>> 2) OK or NOT OK to link to non-free assets. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Dev mailing list >>>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Dev mailing list >>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dev mailing list >> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 02:41:09 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:41:09 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> oops, #3 should have been OK, so long as it doesn't link or include them. On 28/09/18 03:37, Josh Branning wrote: > On 28/09/18 03:33, pribib wrote: >> It would be a real shame for projects such as the following to not even >> be considered due to a lack of clarity as to what extent Parabola is >> implementing it's free cultural work policy. >> >> https://github.com/rwengine/openrw >> https://github.com/SFTtech/openage >> https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenLoco >> https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2 >> >> > > Dunno about these projects, but to answer my own questions in the spirit > of parabola: > > 1) NOT OK > 2) NOT OK > > To answer your questions in the spirit of parabola: > > 1) NOT OK > 2) NOT OK > 3) NOT OK > > > > > ... Though please do not consider this to be a vote. I shall abstain. > >> On 28/09/18 03:23, Josh Branning wrote: >>> Re. the questions; I was going under the assumption that if it's not >>> OK it shouldn't be included in parabola. >>> >>> On 28/09/18 03:18, pribib wrote: >>>> Perhaps the following? >>>> >>>> 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. (e.g. Warsow) >>>> ... and ... >>>> 2) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to obtain >>>> non-free assets. (e.g. OpenRA) >>>> >>>> 3) OK or NOT OK to provide programs whose primary purpose are to make >>>> use of non-free assets. (Whether this be importing into a game >>>> engine or >>>> something else, e.g. OpenMW) >>>> >>>> >>>> While a program like wget may be able to "import assets" it should not >>>> be compared to programs whose primary reason for existence is to import >>>> non-free assets. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 28/09/18 03:12, Josh Branning wrote: >>>>>> I strongly urge other developers to make their opinions known as to >>>>>> where the line should be drawn. >>>>> >>>>> Probably a consensus needs to be reached about >>>>> >>>>> Whether it's ... >>>>> >>>>> 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. >>>>> ... and ... >>>>> 2) OK or NOT OK to link to non-free assets. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Dev mailing list >>>>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >>>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Dev mailing list >>>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Dev mailing list >>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dev mailing list >> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 02:44:41 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:44:41 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> On 28/09/18 03:41, Josh Branning wrote: > oops, #3 should have been OK, so long as it doesn't link or include them. so should have #2 so long as it doesn't link or include them. ... I will try again My own questions: 1) NOT OK 2) NOT OK Your questions 1) NOT OK 2) OK so long as it doesn't link or include non-free assets 3) OK so long as it doesn't link or include non-free assets ... basicimally. :/ From pribib at bluehome.net Fri Sep 28 03:10:20 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 04:10:20 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> Message-ID: One should probably also consider youtube-dl. Looking at the extensive list of sites http://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/supportedsites.html I would not think it unreasonable to presume that there are sites on this list who only provide access to video files that are not free culture, and so should be patched out or removed. On 28/09/18 03:44, Josh Branning wrote: > On 28/09/18 03:41, Josh Branning wrote: >> oops, #3 should have been OK, so long as it doesn't link or include >> them. > > so should have #2 so long as it doesn't link or include them. > > > ... I will try again > > My own questions: > > 1) NOT OK > 2) NOT OK > > Your questions > > 1) NOT OK > 2) OK so long as it doesn't link or include non-free assets > 3) OK so long as it doesn't link or include non-free assets > > ... basicimally. :/ > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 03:14:24 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 04:14:24 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BAD9C90.8040006@gmail.com> Theoretically speaking and following my responses to said questions, the list of supported sites for youtube-dl probably shouldn't exist in said package. Josh On 28/09/18 04:10, pribib wrote: > One should probably also consider youtube-dl. Looking at the extensive > list of sites http://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/supportedsites.html I > would not think it unreasonable to presume that there are sites on this > list who only provide access to video files that are not free culture, > and so should be patched out or removed. > > > On 28/09/18 03:44, Josh Branning wrote: >> On 28/09/18 03:41, Josh Branning wrote: >>> oops, #3 should have been OK, so long as it doesn't link or include >>> them. >> >> so should have #2 so long as it doesn't link or include them. >> >> >> ... I will try again >> >> My own questions: >> >> 1) NOT OK >> 2) NOT OK >> >> Your questions >> >> 1) NOT OK >> 2) OK so long as it doesn't link or include non-free assets >> 3) OK so long as it doesn't link or include non-free assets >> >> ... basicimally. :/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Dev mailing list >> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From pribib at bluehome.net Fri Sep 28 03:32:34 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 04:32:34 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BAD9C90.8040006@gmail.com> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <5BAD9C90.8040006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2236ba51-1a65-4a93-b5ac-e1d6da9aaaff@bluehome.net> I didn't mean to respond to you specifically but what do you mean? To clarify, I meant that if we are bringing the discussion to whether or not software packages available in the Parabola repo should recommend/provide access to obtaining non-free cultural works as its primary purpose then youtube-dl should be considered as well. While the argument may be made that sites accessible via youtube-dl do not always provide non-free cultural works, there are almost certainly some that are. From looking at the list a few of the following sites make me wonder: * Steam * The sites referencing South Park * Sky Sports * Nintendo * Crunchyroll * etc If and when the cultural policy is clearly stated it states that the decisions to remove OpenRA or patch OpenMW based upon their ability to access non-free cultural works was justified then to me it would seem that some similar considerations must be made for youtube-dl. On 28/09/18 04:14, Josh Branning wrote: > Theoretically speaking and following my responses to said questions, > the list of supported sites for youtube-dl probably shouldn't exist in > said package. > > Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 03:43:45 2018 From: lovell.joshyyy at gmail.com (Josh Branning) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 04:43:45 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <2236ba51-1a65-4a93-b5ac-e1d6da9aaaff@bluehome.net> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <5BAD9C90.8040006@gmail.com> <2236ba51-1a65-4a93-b5ac-e1d6da9aaaff@bluehome.net> Message-ID: <5BADA371.3060507@gmail.com> If it were up to me, packages that; 1) Link to non-free cultural works should 1.1) Not be included in parabola. Or ... 1.2) Modified so that the non-free cultural links are removed, so that the package is (or can be) included in parabola. Or... 1.3) Have the non-free cultural links replaced with free cultural links, so that the package is (or can be) included in parabola. 2) Contain non-free cultural works should 2.1) Not be included in parabola. Or ... 2.2) Modified so that the non-free cultural works are removed, so that the package is (or can be) included in parabola. Or... 2.3) Have the non-free cultural works replaced with free cultural works, so that the package is (or can be) included in parabola. Hope that clears things up for you! Josh On 28/09/18 04:32, pribib wrote: > I didn't mean to respond to you specifically but what do you mean? To > clarify, I meant that if we are bringing the discussion to whether or > not software packages available in the Parabola repo should > recommend/provide access to obtaining non-free cultural works as its > primary purpose then youtube-dl should be considered as well. While the > argument may be made that sites accessible via youtube-dl do not always > provide non-free cultural works, there are almost certainly some that > are. From looking at the list a few of the following sites make me wonder: > > * Steam > * The sites referencing South Park > * Sky Sports > * Nintendo > * Crunchyroll > * etc > > If and when the cultural policy is clearly stated it states that the > decisions to remove OpenRA or patch OpenMW based upon their ability to > access non-free cultural works was justified then to me it would seem > that some similar considerations must be made for youtube-dl. > > > On 28/09/18 04:14, Josh Branning wrote: >> Theoretically speaking and following my responses to said questions, >> the list of supported sites for youtube-dl probably shouldn't exist in >> said package. >> >> Josh > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lis From pribib at bluehome.net Fri Sep 28 03:48:37 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 04:48:37 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BADA371.3060507@gmail.com> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <5BAD9C90.8040006@gmail.com> <2236ba51-1a65-4a93-b5ac-e1d6da9aaaff@bluehome.net> <5BADA371.3060507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <536a48e2-99bb-7257-bd07-b62909fa401d@bluehome.net> Thank you, hopefully with some more opinions in a format similar to this a consensus can be formed. On 28/09/18 04:43, Josh Branning wrote: > If it were up to me, packages that; > > 1) Link to non-free cultural works should > 1.1) Not be included in parabola. Or ... > 1.2) Modified so that the non-free cultural links are removed, so that > the package is (or can be) included in parabola. Or... > 1.3) Have the non-free cultural links replaced with free cultural > links, so that the package is (or can be) included in parabola. > 2) Contain non-free cultural works should > 2.1) Not be included in parabola. Or ... > 2.2) Modified so that the non-free cultural works are removed, so that > the package is (or can be) included in parabola. Or... > 2.3) Have the non-free cultural works replaced with free cultural > works, so that the package is (or can be) included in parabola. > > Hope that clears things up for you! > > Josh > > > On 28/09/18 04:32, pribib wrote: >> I didn't mean to respond to you specifically but what do you mean? To >> clarify, I meant that if we are bringing the discussion to whether or >> not software packages available in the Parabola repo should >> recommend/provide access to obtaining non-free cultural works as its >> primary purpose then youtube-dl should be considered as well. While the >> argument may be made that sites accessible via youtube-dl do not always >> provide non-free cultural works, there are almost certainly some that >> are. From looking at the list a few of the following sites make me >> wonder: >> >> ? * Steam >> ? * The sites referencing South Park >> ? * Sky Sports >> ? * Nintendo >> ? * Crunchyroll >> ? * etc >> >> If and when the cultural policy is clearly stated it states that the >> decisions to remove OpenRA or patch OpenMW based upon their ability to >> access non-free cultural works was justified then to me it would seem >> that some similar considerations must be made for youtube-dl. >> >> >> On 28/09/18 04:14, Josh Branning wrote: >>> Theoretically speaking and following my responses to said questions, >>> the list of supported sites for youtube-dl probably shouldn't exist in >>> said package. >>> >>> Josh >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dev mailing list >> Dev at lists.parabola.nu >> https://lis > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From pribib at bluehome.net Fri Sep 28 04:26:17 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 05:26:17 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <536a48e2-99bb-7257-bd07-b62909fa401d@bluehome.net> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <5BAD9C90.8040006@gmail.com> <2236ba51-1a65-4a93-b5ac-e1d6da9aaaff@bluehome.net> <5BADA371.3060507@gmail.com> <536a48e2-99bb-7257-bd07-b62909fa401d@bluehome.net> Message-ID: As an example further to discussion r.e. youtube-dl, the _*NSFW site*_ Motherless (https://motherless.com/tou (link provided only to provide a reference for the quote)) has terms of use which state the following: /3.3 License Grant / // /The Company hereby grants you a nonexclusive, nonsublicensable, nontransferable license to access the Website and its content for your personal and noncommercial use in accordance with this agreement. ?Access? means visit the Website, use its services, and view or download its content. ?Content? means any material, including the text, software, scripts, graphics, photos, sounds, music, videos, audiovisual combinations, interactive features, communications, profiles, streams, data, and other materials found on the Website. ?Personal and noncommercial use? means a presentation of the content for which no fee or consideration is charged or received, which takes place in your private residence or, if outside your residence, is limited to a private viewing by you. Personal and noncommercial use excludes any public or private event presentation even if no fee is charged./ This states that the videos are in fact licensed for *noncommericial *and *personal *use and also includes additional restrictions. This seems in contrast with the definitions provided at http://freedomdefined.org/Definition yet this capability is in Parabola found at /usr/lib/python3.7/site-packages/youtube_dl/extractor/motherless.py when youtube-dl is installed. If OpenMW logic is applied here, this should be patched for removal. To sum up so far we have: * inconsistent viewpoints from the few developers who which to speak on the subject leaving users to reference other things * a social contract inconsistently implemented in practice and reference * a package that was permitted within Parabola which distributed nonfree artwork directly * a package in the repository that enabled downloading of nonfree artwork * a package in the repository that has specifically been modified to remove the ability to make use of nonfree artwork * a package in the repository which could be considered reccomending nonfree artwork I hope this clarifies the confusion on the subject. If it appears that I am solely referencing the extreme of the FSDG emulation and not providing access to non free artwork I would like it to be known that this is because if we look at the extreme then the maximum amount of considerations can be raised instead of limiting ourselves by only thinking of a smaller perspective. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freemor at freemor.ca Fri Sep 28 11:19:17 2018 From: freemor at freemor.ca (Freemor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:19:17 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180928111917.GA3359@freemor.ca> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 03:12:51AM +0100, Josh Branning wrote: > >I strongly urge other developers to make their opinions known as to > >where the line should be drawn. > > Probably a consensus needs to be reached about > > Whether it's ... > > 1) OK or NOT OK to include non-free assets. Not OK > ... and ... > 2) OK or NOT OK to link to non-free assets. Only ok if the "link" is user configurable. That way if it is a fully automatic pull (assets from not.freegame.com are pulled as soon as the program is run). We could just patch the config file to point to example.com (probably causing the progam to crash out. because, you know... who needs sanity checks) If the user then changes it back to not.freegame.com. It is clearly their choice. If the link is not configurable but also not automatic (say an IAP) then this is a grey area as it would be the users choice to activate that.. but It may be unclear to the user that what is linked to in not free. -- Want to send me an encrypted reply? Click here: https://hawkpost.co/box/e414d311-bd6a-4429-8e9e-6a690d5ad034 The rest of my contact details are at: https://freemor.ca/contact -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From freemor at freemor.ca Fri Sep 28 11:31:29 2018 From: freemor at freemor.ca (Freemor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:31:29 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: References: <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 04:10:20AM +0100, pribib wrote: > One should probably also consider youtube-dl. Looking at the > extensive list of sites > http://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/supportedsites.html I would not > think it unreasonable to presume that there are sites on this list > who only provide access to video files that are not free culture, > and so should be patched out or removed. > I see no freedom issue with youtube-dl as the user MUST supply the link of what to download. If the user goes to not.free.site, decides they want not free asset from said site then does youtube-dl hxxps://not.free.site/asset. The onus for the lack of freedom is entirely on the user. Basically If we patch youtue-dl not to pull from non-free sites then we MUST (to be consistent) block ALL browsers we package from going to those same sites. Not our job to protect the user from themselves. Because 1.) ultimately we cannot (always a way around such things) 2.) thats not freedom. That is us deciding what a user can see and do. -- Want to send me an encrypted reply? Click here: https://hawkpost.co/box/e414d311-bd6a-4429-8e9e-6a690d5ad034 The rest of my contact details are at: https://freemor.ca/contact -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 12:42:45 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:42:45 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> References: <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> Message-ID: <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:31:29 -0300 Freemor wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 04:10:20AM +0100, pribib wrote: > [...] > > I see no freedom issue with youtube-dl as the user MUST supply the > link of what to download. > Basically If we patch youtue-dl not to pull > from non-free sites then we MUST (to be consistent) block ALL > browsers we package from going to those same sites. someone told me that youtube-dl has a search feature - that would be a different situation - i assumed it was only for youtube like minitube - the task would be significantly more difficult depending onthe number of disparate services indexed - but even so, there would be no need to block access to any servers, blocking the listings of non-free media should be enough; but would require that service to provide licensing details - probably simplest just remove the search feature entirely the one thing that leaps to mind about this is that the amount of work required to rescue all such programs would be enormous - if such a zero-tolerance policy were adopted it would most likely result in most such programs being removed rather than rescued - and im not saying thats a bad idea - but i am saying that the scope of that decision would reach well beyond games or any other programs purely for entertainment - if the goal is to 1) remove search or import capability, or 2) filter content, or 3) replace content, or 4) blacklist the entire program; then to give that treatment to any one program would be a significant task - but there are probably hundreds that would deserve it equally From freemor at freemor.ca Fri Sep 28 13:16:55 2018 From: freemor at freemor.ca (Freemor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:16:55 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> References: <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> Message-ID: <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 08:42:45AM -0400, bill-auger wrote: > On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:31:29 -0300 Freemor wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 04:10:20AM +0100, pribib wrote: > > [...] > > > > I see no freedom issue with youtube-dl as the user MUST supply the > > link of what to download. > > Basically If we patch youtue-dl not to pull > > from non-free sites then we MUST (to be consistent) block ALL > > browsers we package from going to those same sites. > > > someone told me that youtube-dl has a search feature - that would be > a different situation - i assumed it was only for youtube like > minitube From grepping through the man page the only "search" option just lets you use fuzzy or broken URLs. It is not a search and list content type affair. The only possible issue I see with YTDL is there is a option to list all the sites it has extractors for. I'm not sure this qualifies as "recommending" those sites and again the user has to specifically ask YTDL to show that. So it is not like some YTDL suggests these things.. It just says I know how to work with x,y,z if you directly ask "what can you work with" > the one thing that leaps to mind about this is that the amount of work > required to rescue all such programs would be enormous - if such a > zero-tolerance policy were adopted it would most likely result in most > such programs being removed rather than rescued Agreed > - and im not saying > thats a bad idea - but i am saying that the scope of that decision would > reach well beyond games or any other programs purely for entertainment > - if the goal is to 1) remove search or import capability, or 2) filter > content, or 3) replace content, or 4) blacklist the entire program; > then to give that treatment to any one program would be a significant > task - but there are probably hundreds that would deserve it equally For me the question is one of user responsibility. It is not Parabola's job to infantalize the user and act as a giant cultural filter. It is our job to not say "here use this non-free thing." If we start getting into "oh No! that can touch/show a non free thing" then we are into censorship and that is not a place I'd be comfortable with. For me as long as "thing we provide" needs user interaction to reach "non-free thing" then the choice to use non-free thing is the users. That would leave us with only 2 clear categories to worry about: 1.) Includes non free thing 2.) loads non free thing automatically without user interaction A much smaller set I'm sure -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 13:27:12 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:27:12 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> Message-ID: <20180928092712.19711d59@peers.community> On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:02:47 +0100 pribib wrote: > you yourself do not have a clear understanding of Parabola's free > cultural rule. On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:02:47 +0100 pribib wrote: > there are still no clearly > definitions anywhere. On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:02:47 +0100 pribib wrote: > I would think that if it were already clearly defined you re-iterated that several times - there is such a rule - it is defined clearly - and you read it - it is the "social contract" - its single function is to make it clear what the parabola devs promise to do their best at trying to do what they do On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:02:47 +0100 pribib wrote: > Referring to the social contract might seem to be enough, but as is > evident by the specific removal of the ability to import assets into > OpenMW, there are certain developers within Parabola who are/have > been drawing the line differently to the definition on that site and > instead using FSDG. Referring to the social contract is enough to show where the line is drawn as far as what is promised - some devs may go beyond that if they choose to; and nothing should prevent them - this is not debian - other than the FSDG, there are no strict policies that say one must do exactly *this* but must never do *that* - if some package gets removed that meets the both the "free software" and "free culture" definitions; then someone else could add it back the next day - just as if some package gets added; then someone else could remove it the next day On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 03:02:47 +0100 pribib wrote: > The social contract links to > https://freedomdefined.org/Definition and from what I can gather > there does not appear to be anything on this page referencing > endorsing the ability to import non-free artwork, this seems to be > something certain developers Parabola have decided on its own based > upon emulation of the FSDG. your definition of "non-free artwork" (and mine) is much more strict than theirs - that website considers "freeware" to be "free culture" - so if that parabola promise says that parabola will not "include" anything that does not meet the "free culture" definition; then parabola *can* distribute "freeware" assets with no contradiction to that promise; but as for as i know, there is none of that actually in parabola - so parabola devs already go beyond what is required by the "free culture" definition and it's own social contract - not because they promised to, but because they felt like it - probably that one game whatever did not need to be removed - maybe it could be put back in tomorrow - does anyone care about that one game? - no one complained about it's absence until now im not saying that the mission statement could not be modified to be more strict - i would be on board with that; but if you are looking for absolute consistency in every decision you wont find it here - adhocracy is enough to ensure that can never happen and should never happen From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 13:45:47 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:45:47 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <5BAD9C90.8040006@gmail.com> <2236ba51-1a65-4a93-b5ac-e1d6da9aaaff@bluehome.net> <5BADA371.3060507@gmail.com> <536a48e2-99bb-7257-bd07-b62909fa401d@bluehome.net> Message-ID: <20180928094547.36f43da3@peers.community> On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 05:26:17 +0100 pribib wrote: > * a social contract inconsistently implemented in practice just to underline that again - it *is* implemented consistently - nothing that contradicts that document will stay in parabola for very long - anything that does contradict it, deserves a bug report and it will be removed if you see a discrepancy, it is because the statement it makes about "free culture" is far too weak to have the effect you want (or any effect, really) - the "free culture" definition adds absolutely nothing beyond what the FSDG already says - that entire "free culture" clause of the the "social contract" could be removed, and it would not change anything of practical implications From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 14:11:17 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:11:17 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> References: <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> Message-ID: <20180928101117.5eba8941@peers.community> On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:16:55 -0300 Freemor wrote: > For me as long as "thing we provide" needs user interaction to reach > "non-free thing" then the choice to use non-free thing is the users. that sounds all neat and clean - but the ugly secondary issue that is barking loud here is that both the FSDG and the "free culture definition" consider some of those "things" to be free merely because they are artworks, even though they would be considered non-free if they were software so whatever line we want to draw on the "requires/facilitates/allows/prevents" spectrum of non-free toleration, we must actually draw the same line in two different places depending on what type of "thing" that thing is i say the "free culture definition" should be the one-to-one analog of the "free software definition", providing all 4 freedoms with complete corresponding sources; but the "social contract" document literally says otherwise today From freemor at freemor.ca Fri Sep 28 15:18:58 2018 From: freemor at freemor.ca (Freemor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 12:18:58 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928101117.5eba8941@peers.community> References: <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> <20180928101117.5eba8941@peers.community> Message-ID: <20180928151857.GD3359@freemor.ca> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 10:11:17AM -0400, bill-auger wrote: > that sounds all neat and clean - but the ugly secondary issue that is > barking loud here is that both the FSDG and the "free culture > definition" consider some of those "things" to be free merely because > they are artworks, even though they would be considered non-free if they > were software > > so whatever line we want to draw on the > "requires/facilitates/allows/prevents" spectrum of non-free toleration, > we must actually draw the same line in two different places depending on > what type of "thing" that thing is > > i say the "free culture definition" should be the one-to-one analog of > the "free software definition", providing all 4 freedoms with complete > corresponding sources; but the "social contract" document literally says > otherwise today Interesting points as always. I personally would prefer a single line to work to. Cleaner, less confusing. But if that is the framework we have then we should either work within that framework or re-define the framework. I suppose we could go nuts and create your-artistic-freedom that blacklist all things with non 4 freedoms type art assets. Thus people who care could install artistic-freedom and people more in line with the FSDG could not install.. and then everyone is happy except the maintainer of your-artistic-freedom. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From pribib at bluehome.net Fri Sep 28 17:04:49 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 18:04:49 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928092712.19711d59@peers.community> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <20180928092712.19711d59@peers.community> Message-ID: <502225ac-4112-866e-3f4e-8b9d208eeab6@bluehome.net> OK, I've spent enough time on this and I've raised enough things to consider. If it's the minimum then its the minimum. If it's not then it's not. If there is no consistency and the devs can do whatever they want on a package by package basis then its that. Hopefully by creating this discussion I have provided users with some insight into the logic of the free cultural policy. From pribib at bluehome.net Fri Sep 28 17:06:46 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 18:06:46 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> References: <5BAD8E23.8070908@gmail.com> <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> Message-ID: youtube-dl ytsearch:richard\ stallman this will search and download the first video of richard stallman On 28/09/18 14:16, Freemor wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 08:42:45AM -0400, bill-auger wrote: >> On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:31:29 -0300 Freemor wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 04:10:20AM +0100, pribib wrote: >>> [...] >>> >>> I see no freedom issue with youtube-dl as the user MUST supply the >>> link of what to download. >>> Basically If we patch youtue-dl not to pull >>> from non-free sites then we MUST (to be consistent) block ALL >>> browsers we package from going to those same sites. >> >> someone told me that youtube-dl has a search feature - that would be >> a different situation - i assumed it was only for youtube like >> minitube > From grepping through the man page the only "search" option just lets you use > fuzzy or broken URLs. It is not a search and list content type affair. > > > The only possible issue I see with YTDL is there is a option to list all the > sites it has extractors for. I'm not sure this qualifies as "recommending" > those sites and again the user has to specifically ask YTDL to show that. So > it is not like some YTDL suggests these things.. It just says I know how to > work with x,y,z if you directly ask "what can you work with" > >> the one thing that leaps to mind about this is that the amount of work >> required to rescue all such programs would be enormous - if such a >> zero-tolerance policy were adopted it would most likely result in most >> such programs being removed rather than rescued > Agreed > >> - and im not saying >> thats a bad idea - but i am saying that the scope of that decision would >> reach well beyond games or any other programs purely for entertainment >> - if the goal is to 1) remove search or import capability, or 2) filter >> content, or 3) replace content, or 4) blacklist the entire program; >> then to give that treatment to any one program would be a significant >> task - but there are probably hundreds that would deserve it equally > For me the question is one of user responsibility. It is not Parabola's job to > infantalize the user and act as a giant cultural filter. > > It is our job to not say "here use this non-free thing." > > If we start getting into "oh No! that can touch/show a non free thing" then we > are into censorship and that is not a place I'd be comfortable with. > > For me as long as "thing we provide" needs user interaction to reach "non-free > thing" then the choice to use non-free thing is the users. > > That would leave us with only 2 clear categories to worry about: > 1.) Includes non free thing > 2.) loads non free thing automatically without user interaction > > A much smaller set I'm sure > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freemor at freemor.ca Fri Sep 28 18:20:58 2018 From: freemor at freemor.ca (Freemor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:20:58 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: References: <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> Message-ID: <20180928182058.GE3359@freemor.ca> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 06:06:46PM +0100, pribib wrote: > youtube-dl ytsearch:richard\ stallman > > this will search and download the first video of richard stallman > > Well TIL... Thanks for that. But I do not see how that is different than: open browser to youtube, search, copy URL to command line.. Less steps, True. But the intent is the same. The user is manually saying search youtube for X and grab it. That is the users choice. Now if YTDL grabbed the youtube video of the day each time you ran it.. Then that would be a problem. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From freemor at freemor.ca Fri Sep 28 19:17:02 2018 From: freemor at freemor.ca (Freemor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:17:02 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <8a052a59-320e-b28c-d9f8-6dc49c536d24@bluehome.net> References: <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> <20180928182058.GE3359@freemor.ca> <8a052a59-320e-b28c-d9f8-6dc49c536d24@bluehome.net> Message-ID: <20180928191702.GG3359@freemor.ca> CC'ing back into the list beacuse I assume that was where you meant it to go On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 07:36:19PM +0100, pribib wrote: > The primary purpose of youtube-dl is to obtain local copies of > videos, music and images > > The primary purpose of a browser is to browse the internet which is > significantly broader than the purpose of youtube-dl > > > When thinking about where the line is drawn based on the primary > purpose of the software, youtube-dl should be a consideration > > > Program that accesses the internet and can download lots > vs > Program that is intended to download both free and nonfree cultural files > vs > Program whose only purpose is to download nonfree cultural files > > Consider at what level of this a program is considered to be > recommending or endorsing non free cultural works I see where you are going the but your premise seems flawed. You are failing to recognize that the vast majority of content on websites is non-free. I can not take a random picture from a website modify it and then claim it to be my own. In fact most thing I do not even have the right to re-distribute at all. So if you are arguing youtube-dl is mostly to access non-free works then so is a browser, with very few exceptions. Even the FSF licenses many of their posts CC-BY-ND. Thus not free. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Fri Sep 28 19:47:30 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:47:30 -0400 Subject: [Dev] [dbscripts] [RFC] config: Add more repos to default ARCHTAGS for db-import-pkg Message-ID: <20180928194730.15039-1-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> From: Luke Shumaker This adds staging and testing repos, which we mostly don't currently import. The only bits of this change that I don't feel 100% about are the Arch Linux ARM repos. packages: + staging-x86_64 + gnome-unstable-x86_64 + kde-unstable-x86_64 community: + community-staging-x86_64 + community-testing-x86_64 + multilib-staging-x86_64 archlinux32: (still leaves out *-i486 and releng-x86_64) + community-staging-i686 + community-testing-i686 + staging-i686 + gnome-unstable-i686 + kde-unstable-i686 archlinuxarm: (still leaves out *-aarch64, *-arm, and *-armv6h) + alarm-armv7h + aur-armv7h This also adds a `config-list-tags` script that (like the other `config-*` scripts) helps with writing the config files; it displays discrepancies between the configured ARCHTAGS for an upstream and the list of .db's that fetch_dbs() finds. --- config-list-tags | 80 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ config.local.archlinux32 | 2 +- config.local.archlinuxarm | 2 +- config.local.community | 2 +- config.local.packages | 2 +- 5 files changed, 84 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-) create mode 100755 config-list-tags diff --git a/config-list-tags b/config-list-tags new file mode 100755 index 0000000..679c0ea --- /dev/null +++ b/config-list-tags @@ -0,0 +1,80 @@ +#!/bin/bash + +set -eE -o pipefail +shopt -s extglob globstar nullglob +source "$(librelib messages)" +setup_traps + +# usage: fetch_dbs +fetch_dbs() { + rsync --no-motd -mrtLH --no-p \ + --include="*/" \ + --include="*.db" \ + --exclude="*" \ + --delete-after \ + "$1" "$2" +} + +list_found() { + local ret=0 + local dbfile repo re arch tag + while read -r -d '' dbfile; do + repo=${dbfile##*/} + repo=${repo%.db} + re=$(repo=$repo arch='(.*)' envsubst '$repo $arch' <<<"$ARCHPATH") + arch=$(sed -rn "s,^$re\$,\1,p" <<<"${dbfile%/*}") + if [[ -z $arch ]]; then + error 'Could not figure out architecture for %q' "$dbfile" + ret=1 + continue + fi + printf '%s\n' "$repo-$arch" + done < <(find "$WORKDIR" -name '*.db' -printf '%P\0') | sort -u + return $ret +} + +list_configured() { + printf '%s\n' "${ARCHTAGS[@]}" | sort -u +} + +main() { + if [[ $# -ne 0 ]] || [[ -z "$DBSCRIPTS_CONFIG" ]] || ! grep -q ARCHMIRROR -- "$DBSCRIPTS_CONFIG"; then + msg 'usage: DBSCRIPTS_CONFIG=/path/to/file %s' "${0##*/}" + exit $EXIT_INVALIDARGUMENT + fi + + local config_file + config_file="$(dirname "$(readlink -e "$0")")/config" + source "$config_file" + + WORKDIR=$(mktemp -dt "${0##*/}.XXXXXXXXXX") + readonly WORKDIR + trap "rm -rf -- ${WORKDIR at Q}" EXIT + + fetch_dbs "${ARCHMIRROR}/" "$WORKDIR" + + y="${GREEN}?${ALL_OFF}" + n="${RED}?${ALL_OFF}" + while IFS='' read -r line; do + case "$line" in + $'\t\t'*) + rmt=$y + cfg=$y + val=${line#$'\t\t'} + ;; + $'\t'*) + rmt=$n + cfg=$y + val=${line#$'\t'} + ;; + *) + rmt=$y + cfg=$n + val=$line + ;; + esac + printf '%s:%s:%s\n' "$val" "$rmt" "$cfg" + done < <(comm <(list_found) <(list_configured)) | column -t -s: +} + +main "$@" diff --git a/config.local.archlinux32 b/config.local.archlinux32 index f8582e8..1a5f18c 100644 --- a/config.local.archlinux32 +++ b/config.local.archlinux32 @@ -6,7 +6,7 @@ PKGPOOL='pool/archlinux32' SRCPOOL='sources/archlinux32' # "tags" are repo-arch pairs -ARCHTAGS=({build-support,core,testing,extra,community}-i686) +ARCHTAGS=("${PKGREPOS[@]/%/-i686}") # leaves out *-i486 and releng-x86_64 ARCHPATH='$arch/$repo' ARCHPKGPOOL='pool' diff --git a/config.local.archlinuxarm b/config.local.archlinuxarm index 8947f5c..ec1cb72 100644 --- a/config.local.archlinuxarm +++ b/config.local.archlinuxarm @@ -6,7 +6,7 @@ PKGPOOL='pool/alarm' SRCPOOL='sources/alarm' # "tags" are repo-arch pairs -ARCHTAGS=({core,extra,community}-armv7h) +ARCHTAGS=("${PKGREPOS[@]/%/-armv7h}") ARCHPATH='$arch/$repo' INHERIT=( diff --git a/config.local.community b/config.local.community index 6569eef..cabfa5b 100644 --- a/config.local.community +++ b/config.local.community @@ -6,7 +6,7 @@ PKGPOOL='pool/community' SRCPOOL='sources/community' # "tags" are repo-arch pairs -ARCHTAGS=({community,multilib,multilib-testing}-x86_64) +ARCHTAGS=({community,multilib}{,-testing,-staging}-x86_64) ARCHPATH='$repo/os/$arch' ARCHPKGPOOL='pool/community' ARCHSRCPOOL='sources/community' diff --git a/config.local.packages b/config.local.packages index 1d47755..403fc9c 100644 --- a/config.local.packages +++ b/config.local.packages @@ -6,7 +6,7 @@ PKGPOOL='pool/packages' SRCPOOL='sources/packages' # "tags" are repo-arch pairs -ARCHTAGS=({core,testing,extra}-x86_64) +ARCHTAGS=("${PKGREPOS[@]/%/-x86_64}") ARCHPATH='$repo/os/$arch' ARCHPKGPOOL='pool/packages' ARCHSRCPOOL='sources/packages' -- 2.19.0 From lukeshu at lukeshu.com Fri Sep 28 20:00:22 2018 From: lukeshu at lukeshu.com (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:00:22 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> Message-ID: <875zypv1d5.wl-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 21:42:21 -0400, bill-auger wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 23:05:46 +0100 Adam wrote: > > It is my understanding that if packages do not support free culture > > then they should be removed from Parabola too, regardless of FSDG. > > that is correct - the FSDG only requires non-executable binaries to be > freely distributable That is not quite true. The FSDG *does* require that *all* files be freely distributable. It's the other 3 freedoms that are relaxed (use, modify, share modifications). | 0. Use | 1. Modify | 2. Share | 3. Share modifications --------------------+--------+-----------+----------+----------------------- functional | yes | yes | yes | yes non-functional data | no | no | yes | no Put another way: A user needs to be allowed to make a DVD of the entire FSDG system, and be allowed to sell it. Therefore, all assets we distribute (functional or not) need to be freely distributable, including commercially. Therefore, CC-ND is OK, but CC-NC is not. A game that downloads -NC assets that are not included in the package is an interesting question. My gut reaction is that it's a loophole and still violates the intent of the FSDG. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 21:47:54 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:47:54 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928182058.GE3359@freemor.ca> References: <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> <20180928182058.GE3359@freemor.ca> Message-ID: <20180928174754.6422d25d@peers.community> On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:20:58 -0300 Freemor wrote: > But I do not see how that is different than: open browser to youtube, > search, copy URL to command line.. there really is a subtle difference - the youtube website or search engine is not running on your computer and parabola did not provide it youtube-dl is the best example of this issue - the argument could be made more poignantly by talking about its big brother mini-tube and others of that sort - those not only search the index but automatically download screen-shots of each result - screen-shots are not free culture each video result presents a free license - AFAIK none of these programs actually present the license to the user; which would make it all the more difficult to patch in a filter frankly, i tire of this conversation because it is almost always most passionately argued as it relates to video games or internet videos - prbably the two most trite uses for a computer there is - the true implications of this argument go well beyond those trivial entertainment uses From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 21:57:10 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:57:10 -0400 Subject: [Dev] [dbscripts] [RFC] config: Add more repos to default ARCHTAGS for db-import-pkg In-Reply-To: <20180928194730.15039-1-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> References: <20180928194730.15039-1-lukeshu@lukeshu.com> Message-ID: <20180928175710.56441843@peers.community> this reminds me that having the staging repo imported would allow re-building dependents of 'icu' against new versions as they arrive, before it hits users From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 22:07:09 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 18:07:09 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928174754.6422d25d@peers.community> References: <5BAD90BB.8030209@gmail.com> <28cf9609-3cde-55e1-c501-874aff6fd438@bluehome.net> <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> <20180928182058.GE3359@freemor.ca> <20180928174754.6422d25d@peers.community> Message-ID: <20180928180709.381be4b6@peers.community> On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:47:54 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > youtube-dl is the best example of this issue sry typo - i meant it is NOT the best example - it is just, for some reason, the favorite whipping child on this topic - there are several other programs of that sort; and the arguments against youtube-dl can be made more convincingly by pointing to one of the graphical ones such as mini-tube - but i have never seen anyone suggest that there was anything wrong with mini-tube or totem From bill-auger at peers.community Fri Sep 28 23:30:15 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 19:30:15 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <502225ac-4112-866e-3f4e-8b9d208eeab6@bluehome.net> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <20180928092712.19711d59@peers.community> <502225ac-4112-866e-3f4e-8b9d208eeab6@bluehome.net> Message-ID: <20180928193015.5958464e@peers.community> On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 18:04:49 +0100 pribib wrote: > If there is no consistency and the devs can do whatever its not "whatever" - they promise not do anything that contradicts the "social contract", the FSDG, or the "free culture definition" - your dis-satisfaction here is due to the highly permissive nature of the "free culture definition" - if anything should change, i would look to change the "free culture definition" to entail all 4 freedoms plus sources, then the parabola promises would not need to change On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 18:04:49 +0100 pribib wrote: > Hopefully by > creating this discussion I have provided users with some insight into > the logic of the free cultural policy. and i hope i provided some insight as well by pointing out that the defacto-standard free culture definition is not at all the analog to the free software definition that perhaps many people think it is or should be From pribib at bluehome.net Sat Sep 29 00:27:23 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 01:27:23 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928193015.5958464e@peers.community> References: <91d15eae-7a02-6521-7e38-b51db01983e8@bluehome.net> <20180926214221.08117218@peers.community> <1b4c4bda-b993-4084-a629-874061d5c988@bluehome.net> <20180927045214.35b407a4@peers.community> <443ad711-9e9e-16d5-844e-c719db3811ac@bluehome.net> <20180927205227.59376cf8@peers.community> <20180928092712.19711d59@peers.community> <502225ac-4112-866e-3f4e-8b9d208eeab6@bluehome.net> <20180928193015.5958464e@peers.community> Message-ID: <22729f67-8a40-b93c-a8a5-981c8a6892ac@bluehome.net> On 29/09/18 00:30, bill-auger wrote: > > its not "whatever" - they promise not do anything that contradicts > the "social contract", the FSDG, or the "free culture definition" - your > dis-satisfaction here is due to the highly permissive nature of the > "free culture definition" - if anything should change, i would look to > change the "free culture definition" to entail all 4 freedoms plus > sources, then the parabola promises would not need to change It is whatever line they choose to draw within those terms. My dis-satisfaction is with inconsistency as to where the line is drawn. > > and i hope i provided some insight as well by pointing out that the > defacto-standard free culture definition is not at all the analog to the > free software definition that perhaps many people think it is or should > be Great, maybe this would be obvious if certain devs were not drawing the line at this point > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From pribib at bluehome.net Sat Sep 29 02:28:56 2018 From: pribib at bluehome.net (pribib) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 03:28:56 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: <20180928191702.GG3359@freemor.ca> References: <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> <20180928182058.GE3359@freemor.ca> <8a052a59-320e-b28c-d9f8-6dc49c536d24@bluehome.net> <20180928191702.GG3359@freemor.ca> Message-ID: On 28/09/18 20:17, Freemor wrote: > CC'ing back into the list beacuse I assume that was where you meant it to go > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 07:36:19PM +0100, pribib wrote: > > I see where you are going the but your premise seems flawed. You are failing to > recognize that the vast majority of content on websites is non-free. I can not > take a random picture from a website modify it and then claim it to be my own. > In fact most thing I do not even have the right to re-distribute at all. > > So if you are arguing youtube-dl is mostly to access non-free works then so is > a browser, with very few exceptions. Even the FSF licenses many of their posts > CC-BY-ND. Thus not free. I have attempted to highlight the differences but if that is your perspective, then OK, then that's what I am arguing. Does the inclusion of web browsers suggest Parabola endorses nonfree cultural works? If not then it would appear that the line cannot be drawn at "tools that mostly provide access to nonfree works" because of web browsers. Therefore there is no need to patch or remove games that enable a user to access nonfree works because web browsers do the same. If as, bill has stated, devs can implement the line wherever they feel without confirmation from other devs and this is your opinion then I would ask you personally to draw the line here and maintain packages such as OpenRA and an unpatched version of OpenMW. If so please remove web browsers. From bill's statements, developers as it stands have the ability to decide what kind of cultural works their users can access based on their own personal level of support for free culture. Personal political opinions of individual developers should not be imposed on users. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brettg at posteo.net Sat Sep 29 04:46:53 2018 From: brettg at posteo.net (Brett Gilio) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 23:46:53 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: References: <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> <20180928182058.GE3359@freemor.ca> <8a052a59-320e-b28c-d9f8-6dc49c536d24@bluehome.net> <20180928191702.GG3359@freemor.ca> Message-ID: <87o9cgx64i.fsf@posteo.net> pribib writes: > If so please remove web browsers. Why? Ethical web browsers do not suggest or recommend non-free software. That would be the websites the web browser can render to. I feel like if we are going to talk about lines being drawn, this is not a point of consistency from which to make such an assessment. A program can be used for many purposes, and the implications of that regarding freedom should be taken in such a way that the user is able to demonstrate an understanding of the ethic and responsability that freedom requires. A website is merely rendered. -- Brett M. Gilio Free Software Foundation, Member https://parabola.nu | https://emacs.org From bill-auger at peers.community Sat Sep 29 05:24:02 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 01:24:02 -0400 Subject: [Dev] Parabola stance on game assets In-Reply-To: References: <5BAD93DE.8070801@gmail.com> <5BAD94C5.4090705@gmail.com> <5BAD9599.6020102@gmail.com> <20180928113129.GB3359@freemor.ca> <20180928084245.5c968f37@peers.community> <20180928131643.GC3359@freemor.ca> <20180928182058.GE3359@freemor.ca> <8a052a59-320e-b28c-d9f8-6dc49c536d24@bluehome.net> <20180928191702.GG3359@freemor.ca> Message-ID: <20180929012402.374bb4ab@peers.community> On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 03:28:56 +0100 pribib wrote: > From bill's statements, developers as it stands have the ability to > decide what kind of cultural works their users can access based on > their own personal level of support for free culture. Personal > political opinions of individual developers should not be imposed on > users. youre really reading too much into this - this is not an issue of anyone imposing their will on anyone else - it is simply the case that some package was removed from the repos - the reason why that was done is not very important really - packages come and go routinely - maybe some users nagged him about it incessantly for two weeks and he removed it just to shut them up - that would only be a problem if other people raised counter-complaints about that - i assume no one did so at the time; so thats how it stands today the only hard rules there are say only what software parabola will not distribute - nothing says that parabola must distribute any software at all - when a package is blacklisted, there should be some valid reason given and that will allow someone at some later time to determine whether it was strictly necessary or not and what, if anything, was done to liberate it; but any package can be removed at any time for any reason - if that package is useful and is meets the FSDG, it could possibly be re-added again at any later time; but there no imperative to do so for any package outside the base system above all though, it is not even possible for a parabola dev to impose anything upon users - the most striking reason why that should be clear is that the PKGBUILD for every package that is or was ever in parabola is still available in the arch and parabola git repos for all of eternity for anyone to grab and build themselves - even most of the pre-built binaries are there - it is not possible to prevent anyone from building and installing any package - the most the dev who removed that package imposed on anyone was that he was no longer going to build that package for them there is only a problem when something is introduced that should not be there - simply removing something that otherwise *could* be there is not a real problem - it is, at most, a minor inconvenience to those who use it - if there are enough of them, they can speak louder to get it put back in From GNUtoo at no-log.org Thu Sep 27 18:34:03 2018 From: GNUtoo at no-log.org (Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 20:34:03 +0200 Subject: [Dev] [PATCH 2/2] pcr/guix: update to 0.15.0 Message-ID: <20180927203403.647d9f87@primary_laptop.localdomain> Signed-off-by: Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli --- pcr/guix/PKGBUILD | 17 +++++------------ 1 file changed, 5 insertions(+), 12 deletions(-) diff --git a/pcr/guix/PKGBUILD b/pcr/guix/PKGBUILD index f1c279ec4..fb4a7738b 100644 --- a/pcr/guix/PKGBUILD +++ b/pcr/guix/PKGBUILD @@ -9,7 +9,7 @@ # gpg --recv-keys 3CE464558A84FDC69DB40CFB090B11993D9AEBB5 pkgname=guix -pkgver=0.14.0 +pkgver=0.15.0 pkgrel=1 pkgdesc="A purely functional package manager for the GNU system" arch=('x86_64' 'i686' 'armv7h') @@ -24,6 +24,7 @@ makedepends=( depends=( 'guile>=2.0.9' 'guile-git-lib' + 'guile-sqlite3' 'sqlite>=3.6.19' 'bzip2' 'gnutls' @@ -40,26 +41,20 @@ source=( "armhf-linux-20150101-guile-2.0.11.tar.xz::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/armhf-linux/20150101/guile-2.0.11.tar.xz" "armhf-linux-20150101-guile-2.0.11.tar.xz.sig::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/armhf-linux/20150101/guile-2.0.11.tar.xz.sig" "i686-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/i686-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz" -# "i686-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/i686-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig" "mips64el-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/mips64el-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz" -# "mips64el-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/mips64el-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig" "x86_64-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/x86_64-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz" -# "x86_64-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/x86_64-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig" ) install="${pkgname}.install" sha1sums=( - '1bc53c49d88600d63a1f195707a6f2cb0df83123' - '1c3ce54c829b93d6f9cb72367c1f669b6b5f381f' + 'b971e19b539f3f27f675bc1d7cfc126065a7d61c' + '1284dfdebc290c7d02921b0251ce2347a9263bb9' 'SKIP' 'SKIP' 'SKIP' 'SKIP' 'SKIP' -# 'SKIP' 'SKIP' -# 'SKIP' 'SKIP' -# 'SKIP' ) sha256sums=( 'SKIP' @@ -69,11 +64,8 @@ sha256sums=( 'e551d05d4d385d6706ab8d574856a087758294dc90ab4c06e70a157a685e23d6' '4ceb3b490e2eed1631ec204d68ebf2a91806f6d1c438fc3a8d744b3f0351633d' 'b757cd46bf13ecac83fb8e955fb50096ac2d17bb610ca8eb816f29302a00a846' -# '5c710ad8efa927711347cb585ceec25d99c3b3065955060275076be55f46f228' '994680f0001346864aa2c2cc5110f380ee7518dcd701c614291682b8e948f73b' -# 'd22c325e7d64b805679cc449b8865f7ac7629b83c71a6ae9812541408bac1952' '037b103522a2d0d7d69c7ffd8de683dfe5bb4b59c1fafd70b4ffd397fd2f57f0' -# '50ec32f47dd659583d7ee633b8d6d4180b413c3680b1628ab6346241ac2c2b46' ) validpgpkeys=('3CE464558A84FDC69DB40CFB090B11993D9AEBB5') noextract=( @@ -103,6 +95,7 @@ build() { --libexecdir="/usr/lib/${pkgname}" --localstatedir=/var \ --sysconfdir=/etc --with-bash-completion-dir="${bash_completion_dir}" \ --disable-rpath + make clean-go make } -- 2.18.0 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From GNUtoo at no-log.org Thu Sep 27 18:33:42 2018 From: GNUtoo at no-log.org (Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 20:33:42 +0200 Subject: [Dev] [PATCH 1/2] pcr/guile-sqlite3: added Message-ID: <20180927203342.2b0d3c93@primary_laptop.localdomain> This will also be needed for guix 0.15.0 as it depends on it. This PKGBUILD was based on guile-ssh Signed-off-by: Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli --- pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD | 27 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 27 insertions(+) create mode 100644 pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD diff --git a/pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD b/pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f8e51493a --- /dev/null +++ b/pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD @@ -0,0 +1,27 @@ +pkgname=guile-sqlite3 +pkgver=0.1.0 +pkgrel=1 +pkgdesc='Guile bindings for the SQLite3 database engine' +arch=('x86_64' 'i686' 'armv7h') +url="https://notabug.org/civodul/guile-sqlite3.git" +license=('GPL3') +depends=('guile>=2.0' 'sqlite>=3') +source=("https://notabug.org/civodul/guile-sqlite3/archive/v${pkgver}.tar.gz") +sha256sums=('7501cd60bc693e581dc3e153f418279e1e1637c0760bc4524af6eb2d8eac2fe9') + +build() { + cd ${srcdir}/${pkgname} + autoreconf -fi + ./configure --prefix=/usr + make +} + +check() { + cd ${srcdir}/${pkgname} + make check +} + +package() { + cd ${srcdir}/${pkgname} + make DESTDIR="${pkgdir}" install +} -- 2.18.0 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From rysa88 at posteo.net Sun Sep 23 11:18:31 2018 From: rysa88 at posteo.net (Ryan) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 12:18:31 +0100 Subject: [Dev] New server provider? Message-ID: <3aa8b4e7-3488-2807-c531-61a4d2d7684a@posteo.net> Hi Wasn't sure which list to post this to, so apologies if this was the wrong place. I should start this by adding I am probably biased, given that I am on the management committee of this provider, so I speak as a Parabola Gnu/Linux Libre user and someone involved in webarch, however I don't know if you have heard of? Webarchitects Co-operative. https://www.webarch.net/ . Webarch provides all sorts of hosting services and aswell as being a co-operative organisation, one of its key values is the use of Free/Libre Software. So I'm not sure if webarch can or can not provide what you need or what the costing would be like, but if your interested, contacting the team, would be able to give you some idea re: clarifying this all. Hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't. Ryan ??? -- From rysa88 at posteo.net Mon Sep 24 13:44:19 2018 From: rysa88 at posteo.net (Ryan) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 14:44:19 +0100 Subject: [Dev] New server provider? In-Reply-To: <3aa8b4e7-3488-2807-c531-61a4d2d7684a@posteo.net> References: <3aa8b4e7-3488-2807-c531-61a4d2d7684a@posteo.net> Message-ID: <0ed11809-9cca-a17f-dbee-fd738044b96b@posteo.net> Hi Wasn't sure which list to post this to, so apologies if this was the wrong place. I should start this by adding I am probably biased, given that I am on the management committee of this provider, so I speak as a Parabola Gnu/Linux Libre user and someone involved in webarch, however I don't know if you have heard of? Webarchitects Co-operative. https://www.webarch.net/ . Webarch provides all sorts of hosting services and aswell as being a co-operative organisation, one of its key values is the use of Free/Libre Software. So I'm not sure if webarch can or can not provide what you need or what the costing would be like, but if your interested, contacting the team, would be able to give you some idea re: clarifying this all. Hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't. Ryan ??? -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GNUtoo at cyberdimension.org Thu Sep 27 15:24:10 2018 From: GNUtoo at cyberdimension.org (Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 17:24:10 +0200 Subject: [Dev] [PATCH 2/2] pcr/guix: update to 0.15.0 Message-ID: <20180927172410.07b368d9@primary_laptop.localdomain> Signed-off-by: Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli --- pcr/guix/PKGBUILD | 17 +++++------------ 1 file changed, 5 insertions(+), 12 deletions(-) diff --git a/pcr/guix/PKGBUILD b/pcr/guix/PKGBUILD index f1c279ec4..fb4a7738b 100644 --- a/pcr/guix/PKGBUILD +++ b/pcr/guix/PKGBUILD @@ -9,7 +9,7 @@ # gpg --recv-keys 3CE464558A84FDC69DB40CFB090B11993D9AEBB5 pkgname=guix -pkgver=0.14.0 +pkgver=0.15.0 pkgrel=1 pkgdesc="A purely functional package manager for the GNU system" arch=('x86_64' 'i686' 'armv7h') @@ -24,6 +24,7 @@ makedepends=( depends=( 'guile>=2.0.9' 'guile-git-lib' + 'guile-sqlite3' 'sqlite>=3.6.19' 'bzip2' 'gnutls' @@ -40,26 +41,20 @@ source=( "armhf-linux-20150101-guile-2.0.11.tar.xz::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/armhf-linux/20150101/guile-2.0.11.tar.xz" "armhf-linux-20150101-guile-2.0.11.tar.xz.sig::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/armhf-linux/20150101/guile-2.0.11.tar.xz.sig" "i686-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/i686-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz" -# "i686-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/i686-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig" "mips64el-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/mips64el-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz" -# "mips64el-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/mips64el-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig" "x86_64-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/x86_64-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz" -# "x86_64-linux-20131110-guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig::https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/${pkgname}/bootstrap/x86_64-linux/20131110/guile-2.0.9.tar.xz.sig" ) install="${pkgname}.install" sha1sums=( - '1bc53c49d88600d63a1f195707a6f2cb0df83123' - '1c3ce54c829b93d6f9cb72367c1f669b6b5f381f' + 'b971e19b539f3f27f675bc1d7cfc126065a7d61c' + '1284dfdebc290c7d02921b0251ce2347a9263bb9' 'SKIP' 'SKIP' 'SKIP' 'SKIP' 'SKIP' -# 'SKIP' 'SKIP' -# 'SKIP' 'SKIP' -# 'SKIP' ) sha256sums=( 'SKIP' @@ -69,11 +64,8 @@ sha256sums=( 'e551d05d4d385d6706ab8d574856a087758294dc90ab4c06e70a157a685e23d6' '4ceb3b490e2eed1631ec204d68ebf2a91806f6d1c438fc3a8d744b3f0351633d' 'b757cd46bf13ecac83fb8e955fb50096ac2d17bb610ca8eb816f29302a00a846' -# '5c710ad8efa927711347cb585ceec25d99c3b3065955060275076be55f46f228' '994680f0001346864aa2c2cc5110f380ee7518dcd701c614291682b8e948f73b' -# 'd22c325e7d64b805679cc449b8865f7ac7629b83c71a6ae9812541408bac1952' '037b103522a2d0d7d69c7ffd8de683dfe5bb4b59c1fafd70b4ffd397fd2f57f0' -# '50ec32f47dd659583d7ee633b8d6d4180b413c3680b1628ab6346241ac2c2b46' ) validpgpkeys=('3CE464558A84FDC69DB40CFB090B11993D9AEBB5') noextract=( @@ -103,6 +95,7 @@ build() { --libexecdir="/usr/lib/${pkgname}" --localstatedir=/var \ --sysconfdir=/etc --with-bash-completion-dir="${bash_completion_dir}" \ --disable-rpath + make clean-go make } -- 2.18.0 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From GNUtoo at cyberdimension.org Thu Sep 27 15:23:49 2018 From: GNUtoo at cyberdimension.org (Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 17:23:49 +0200 Subject: [Dev] [PATCH 1/2] pcr/guile-sqlite3: added Message-ID: <20180927171016.38fd1166@primary_laptop.localdomain> This will also be needed for guix 0.15.0 as it depends on it. This PKGBUILD was based on guile-ssh Signed-off-by: Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli --- pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD | 27 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 27 insertions(+) create mode 100644 pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD diff --git a/pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD b/pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f8e51493a --- /dev/null +++ b/pcr/guile-sqlite3/PKGBUILD @@ -0,0 +1,27 @@ +pkgname=guile-sqlite3 +pkgver=0.1.0 +pkgrel=1 +pkgdesc='Guile bindings for the SQLite3 database engine' +arch=('x86_64' 'i686' 'armv7h') +url="https://notabug.org/civodul/guile-sqlite3.git" +license=('GPL3') +depends=('guile>=2.0' 'sqlite>=3') +source=("https://notabug.org/civodul/guile-sqlite3/archive/v${pkgver}.tar.gz") +sha256sums=('7501cd60bc693e581dc3e153f418279e1e1637c0760bc4524af6eb2d8eac2fe9') + +build() { + cd ${srcdir}/${pkgname} + autoreconf -fi + ./configure --prefix=/usr + make +} + +check() { + cd ${srcdir}/${pkgname} + make check +} + +package() { + cd ${srcdir}/${pkgname} + make DESTDIR="${pkgdir}" install +} -- 2.18.0 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From bill-auger at peers.community Sun Sep 30 20:56:14 2018 From: bill-auger at peers.community (bill-auger) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 16:56:14 -0400 Subject: [Dev] New server provider? In-Reply-To: <3aa8b4e7-3488-2807-c531-61a4d2d7684a@posteo.net> References: <3aa8b4e7-3488-2807-c531-61a4d2d7684a@posteo.net> Message-ID: <20180930165614.165e5298@peers.community> On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 12:18:31 +0100 Ryan wrote: > I am on the management committee of this provider > Webarch provides all sorts of hosting > I'm not sure if > webarch can or can not provide what you need or what the costing > would be like if you are on the management committee, then why would you not know of you can help or not - wouldnt the management committee be the very ones to make that determination? at this point, we are asking for sponsorship offers; that means what "the costing would be like", is: "zero" - the one thing we can offer is to sport a logo for the sponsor organization and link to it's web site on the parabola front page; and for that reason, we would prefer a libre-conscious sponsor - please do make that offer if you can, and it will be considered we are not yet at a point of desperation where it would be imperative to send out explicit pleas to hosting companies - if your organization were to offer to sponsor parabola, the main concern i see, is that the organization seems to be less than 6 months old; so there is not much assurance that the organization will still exist in 6 months from now - this is a situation we should want not to be in again for another 6 years - i dont think that parabola has ever in the past asked for anything from the community, other than bug reports; and we dont want to make a habit of it