From tct at ceata.org Sat Jan 3 07:01:19 2015 From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2015 09:01:19 +0200 Subject: [Dev] Parabola representative needed for contract w/ Ceata Message-ID: <54A793BF.8050506@ceata.org> Happy GNU year, Parabola hackers! This morning I have received an e-mail from Andr? saying I can start drafting the contract for Ceata's institutional support for Parabola. If that's the case, as I stated before, I need to work with a representative of Parabola, elected by the community, who is willing to discuss internally about the different aspects of the contract. This is important to ensure Parabola's independence and contract drafting efficiency. If I will be discussing the different aspects directly with a group of 5+ Parabola hackers, chances are that *unwillingly* I influence your process of decision making. Also, when different voices say different things, I can't know what is the Paraboa's official position on the matter. For each matter, I only need the official position and act upon it. Can the Parabola community elect a trustful representative at least for the purpose of drafting the contract? This representative will sign the contract on behalf of Parabola and will take the responsibility of ensuring everything in our collaboration is in compliance with the contract. You also need to think about the way future decisions (on using the donations) will be made. Usually informal projects (and associations) have a Council of representatives with an executive role, while the General Assembly of all officially recognized members has the role of voting on the matters the Council has the authority to implement. With foundations it's simpler, usually the Council has both the decision-making and the executive roles. Internally I will talk with my colleagues in Ceata's Council and have the vote for each of the major decisions regarding the contract, so you need not to worry about addressing directly Ceata's Council. Thanks, -- Tiberiu C. Turbureanu Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata http://turbureanu.ro/contact Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor? ?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri From kzer-za at cryptolab.net Sat Jan 3 15:48:58 2015 From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2015 15:48:58 +0000 Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port In-Reply-To: <549561C9.4040302@cryptolab.net> References: <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de> <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net> <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de> <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de> <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net> <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de> <549561C9.4040302@cryptolab.net> Message-ID: <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hello! My BeagleBone Black is here so I can now test linux-libre. The only problem is that I am missing a dependency, linux-libre-api-headers. I have installed Arch on the BeagleBone at the moment. Also, does the linux-libre package also comes with firmware? I will test some packages on it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUqA9jAAoJEI2NIwdfk/klow0P+gLlYbfQdlfmkGGkKbJGo5Ju 2I2IirZ+WnCxCs3NFQJsNQnLU7JwRvbMtanpBIHW80i20dhFER1Ze4UafcPoNRlQ oxzYXVBYOCq/nPLYDMPDyys8kqKm8T93GsPvOnDR42dLAThEDKmcI/+3TVOhhWxv FIezaMdHYozMZO4raxiVHzon9lq637PpOqaQGf1dLkDG+wU2ViqDysPY56/r2XSn w/xAUzjMtL6zZ5CHa097svyoJExE334dFKQMYyOQkhCaewYS3g9hK2Uj+gDShBfX Fx0Fh3vH7folxqupAVO6LpSMA/8f74eLRmLXmc2P95TUsaGNYeZ8WXseC/vqvx5T IBhkWbCSm3y9OBPgjkqh9ByfMi5rfHA5ypwm3WOljsslf8OqMW537XWbWynaD83M ZviXIyry6oUyyqqwrA7yutYf/AduJXxQcaQLanPC5f+sTVpApeem/mice+nL6N/8 byPKBctkhWRcILmzRRVsR4q0257v4vganyG863W62sqrGAoBgwKM8Lpuzn5LaQkM TMuaN+Pkh3wsAI8Efhe9heQWsc9jHWxZd9GAG3L3WHewanPOpf+W4oSbs3KQZEOq gWG6+zX3qgvSelkGeD70tGu4nby7mV6em0Dp88Rm2wnnDug23WSL71wMRUR65au+ wi+Za8XhHIZIU4WK72m4 =05oj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From aurelien at hackers.camp Sun Jan 4 10:40:38 2015 From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 11:40:38 +0100 Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port In-Reply-To: <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of "Sat, 03 Jan 2015 15:48:58 +0000") References: <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de> <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net> <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de> <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de> <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net> <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de> <549561C9.4040302@cryptolab.net> <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> Message-ID: <87h9w6suah.fsf@hackers.camp> Kuba Kukielka writes: > Hello! > > My BeagleBone Black is here so I can now test linux-libre. The only > problem is that I am missing a dependency, linux-libre-api-headers. > > I have installed Arch on the BeagleBone at the moment. > > Also, does the linux-libre package also comes with firmware? > > I will test some packages on it. > Hello! Maybe the FSFLA could told us better about that point and/or have a ready to build version. -- Aurelien DESBRIERES -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From isacdaavid at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 18:39:45 2015 From: isacdaavid at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Isaac_David_Reyes_Gonz=C3=A1lez?=) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 12:39:45 -0600 Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port In-Reply-To: <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> References: <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de> <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net> <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de> <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de> <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net> <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de> <549561C9.4040302@cryptolab.net> <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> Message-ID: https://www.parabola.nu/packages/libre/x86_64/linux-libre-api-headers/ https://www.parabola.nu/packages/libre/any/linux-libre-firmware/ I'm about to test Mono's libre cross toolchain on my beaglebone too. On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Kuba Kukielka wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > Hello! > > My BeagleBone Black is here so I can now test linux-libre. The only > problem is that I am missing a dependency, linux-libre-api-headers. > > I have installed Arch on the BeagleBone at the moment. > > Also, does the linux-libre package also comes with firmware? > > I will test some packages on it. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2 > > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUqA9jAAoJEI2NIwdfk/klow0P+gLlYbfQdlfmkGGkKbJGo5Ju > 2I2IirZ+WnCxCs3NFQJsNQnLU7JwRvbMtanpBIHW80i20dhFER1Ze4UafcPoNRlQ > oxzYXVBYOCq/nPLYDMPDyys8kqKm8T93GsPvOnDR42dLAThEDKmcI/+3TVOhhWxv > FIezaMdHYozMZO4raxiVHzon9lq637PpOqaQGf1dLkDG+wU2ViqDysPY56/r2XSn > w/xAUzjMtL6zZ5CHa097svyoJExE334dFKQMYyOQkhCaewYS3g9hK2Uj+gDShBfX > Fx0Fh3vH7folxqupAVO6LpSMA/8f74eLRmLXmc2P95TUsaGNYeZ8WXseC/vqvx5T > IBhkWbCSm3y9OBPgjkqh9ByfMi5rfHA5ypwm3WOljsslf8OqMW537XWbWynaD83M > ZviXIyry6oUyyqqwrA7yutYf/AduJXxQcaQLanPC5f+sTVpApeem/mice+nL6N/8 > byPKBctkhWRcILmzRRVsR4q0257v4vganyG863W62sqrGAoBgwKM8Lpuzn5LaQkM > TMuaN+Pkh3wsAI8Efhe9heQWsc9jHWxZd9GAG3L3WHewanPOpf+W4oSbs3KQZEOq > gWG6+zX3qgvSelkGeD70tGu4nby7mV6em0Dp88Rm2wnnDug23WSL71wMRUR65au+ > wi+Za8XhHIZIU4WK72m4 > =05oj > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellekin at gnu.org Sun Jan 4 20:44:17 2015 From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 17:44:17 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola Message-ID: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 In the last weeks we exchanged a lot about the need and possibility to introduce money in the development of Parabola/GNU/Linux-libre. Tiberiu offered to sponsor the project from the Fundatio Ceata, which presents a number of advantages, especially on of ethical alignment. Aur?lien rose a strong shield against the principle of introducing money, pretexting the antagonism between friendship and money. His position was mostly rationalized against, and maybe because he does not master the English language well enough, or maybe because he could not verbalize his emotions into reasonable arguments, his minority position mostly remained a lonely voice. As the consensus minus one seems to be to embrace Tiberiu's plan, I want to address Aur?lien's position in other words than his own with the objective to ease the tension and reframe the discussion. I certainly don't want that the core feature of Parabola, i.e. friendship, be dissolved by the introduction of money. A corollary is that Aur?lien cannot feel excluded for taking a different position that the rest of Parabola stakeholders. First, I want to say that I think Aur?lien puts too much emphasis on the properties of money: it seems to me that *competition*, from what I've read so far, is a more precise term for the consequences of introducing money that Aur?lien seems to reject. I explain. Parabola is built on human affinities and friendship, to build a free operating system that respects users' freedom and community. In other words, Parabola is conceived itself as a community, with collaboration as its fundamental feature, not only between developers but primarily between users of the distro, whether or not they have a role in steering, building, or maintaining the distribution. In Aur?lien's view, introducing money is that alchemy would dissociate the synergy and reduce it to its composing elements. I can agree with the intuition that money has the capacity to change the current equilibrium of Parabola and that in any case we're facing a phase transition to a different metastable system. On the other hand, I certainly wish that the new metastable system of Parabola+funding will not destroy any of the founding features, because then, it would kill the project. It's critical to understand that Aur?lien's position is not just an extreme anti-money position, but an intuition of the avalanche of consequences that such a move can produce. In my understanding, money comes with several challenges: it makes more abstract and "objective" relations of causality that were until now internalized and purely emotional; it may make explicit some relations that were implicit; it requires accountability where the common space was undefined and implicit. In this list I didn't mention competition, because I don't believe in the interdependence of competition and money: I prefer seeing money as a mean to an end, and if it's used collaboratively, then competition has nothing to do in the picture. Competition will become an issue however if money is considered as an end. It will open questions such as "why would that person get more money than I do?", etc. As I said earlier, money is not a problem but its allocation is. What purpose does it serve, and how fair can it be? Allocation of money-as-a-mean is not the same as allocation of money-as-an-end. If the end is to earn money, then it's the latter case. I think Parabola should focus on the former case, namely that money should be allocated to facilitate the development of the project. With the original proposal by Icarious and Emulatorman, the goal was to provide continuity to the project. In the spirit of solidarity, allocating money to developers in need is both cheap and a mean to reinforce the community, not a mean to dislocate it. How this spirit is defined can be a challenge for the same reasons of the overhead created by introducing money in the system. Thus it's important to think about ways and means, objectives and clarify the goals and values. There is no intrinsic moral issue with money considered as an additional resource. All moral issues attached to it come from the possibilities it enables. But such possibilities are not deterministic: the nuclear bomb demonstrated that because it's technically possible (to destroy life on Earth), it's not necessarily happening (thanks to deterrence). So money itself may come with issues, but that does not means money is cancer. Knowing the issues and routing around them should be enough. Tiberiu already mentioned the goals of his foundation in sponsoring Parabola. Contrary to a typical sponsorship agreement (for example with a corporation), Ceata does not have to expect a direct return, as the success of Parabola is a sufficient return. So for Parabola there's no question about how to handle the overhead by writing reports, etc. The concern of the community remains the same as always: how can we build solidarity and reinforce community patterns, except with additional resources. I hope this revisit of the problem can help steer the future towards a sane approach of natural growth. I'm available for further exploration of the topic and concrete proposals on how to make this happen. == hk P.S.: I took the liberty to interpret Aur?lien's words because he did not respond to my repeated questions about his personal use of money. These questions were not made to demonstrate a contradiction in his position, but to shift the issue from money to dissociation and competition. It did not happen, so be it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUqaYZXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQ0IyNkIyRTNDNzEyMTc2OUEzNEM4ODU0 ODA2QzM2M0ZDMTg5ODNEAAoJEEgGw2P8GJg9iYEP/RwEMb5x9EdaqOzBZAFZ/kBb CM5i4HDk3ZKZyU/MLrcfWWtakSJUsLq1gnZpaz/R+uXTUY5ugwtXoi9GOCL4JbZU TAxFo+UYgg6UTnNbKx5iqpCoYMA4G0giXHv31MBA/HUmpGt0K2x973kKKdfKUAvU Xez8Ap4jUGrHtAVxEYvTKoRY35zLkIu6+KNFmyiZSAd7jEt2y8WglIRK4iOsmk8/ J+efS4h5giLsG8Es1VSW/p3a5WiJgmyBPtgah4Js3n72jSX5b5X8ixo6WzwRMSIy J/qnAvqvA68OT5WGvExTAWgqMI2gKn4vrhogWeEhOQTKqueT/RRPwymkuVHtAmx9 G3mVM4BtPezwHv6QAVUMfZ6mhe8ud10PBQmj6XQaQZMTye8K2OlxeePwW9DrMLTt 5JIu2GYZSeR4bjaUIjjcuLSkU9GS2VO020qYjkNjb8m2hjD01+Fn+j6OlqrrDZPs yqRbucEmk3GiCyl75cxEgC0RiprTyPyTSF5NCelTuqKdF5XFD56nJIh5ZzP12Anq zQkVBYau6axUT9cNUizKqhS3zLF5U8XckaBvjX9hdpjLmpjBBiq6tTSM8IvcRDik yBsDsDgcY6uqNizbKHR7Me7Y6Adb0SlkjR7zPnWmVa7VtY6kGyUmtKhRHJkbow3b XywJYIF6F0HfXhTnX1xC =zubp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From koz.ross at runbox.com Tue Jan 6 02:21:35 2015 From: koz.ross at runbox.com (Koz Ross) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 15:21:35 +1300 Subject: [Dev] Adding toxcore and uTox to PCR Message-ID: <20150106152135.8fccc8f97f0b8f94db729c2d@runbox.com> I use both of these a lot, and would really like to have them in PCR. They're both licensed under GPL, and have been non-problematic in my experience. AUR packages for both of these already exist: - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/tox-git/ - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/utox-git/ The only thing we're missing in terms of dependencies is check, which is also under the GPL: - https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/check/ Would it be possible to have them added? I wouldn't mind maintaining them, assuming someone were to walk me through how. -- Koz Ross From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 6 02:31:21 2015 From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 21:31:21 -0500 Subject: [Dev] libretools 20150104 release announcement Message-ID: <877fx04p3a.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Yesterday I released libretools 20150104. It is primarily a compatibility-release for the new Pacman 4.2.0 and GnuPG 2.1; but there are some other changes. Changes from 20141128 to 20150104: Genuine changes: - libredbdiff:[^0] * cleaner output format * multiple non-default repositories Parabola: libre pcr libre-multilib nonprism Arch: multilib * a single Parabola repository can be specified as argument to restrict the comparison to that repository * support expac 4 extra/expac 4.2 has a bug, so pcr/expac-relative 4.2-parabola1 or later is needed * detection of missing files * code style * move code to functions * usage text and messages - conf.sh(3): Proof-read the manual page - default /etc/libretools.conf: only set DIFFPROG to a graphical tool if DISPLAY is set. - librechroot/libremakepkg: Several messages now print a full path name, when the short path name was ambiguous or confusing. - librefetch-install: A new tool to enable/disable librefetch in makepkg.conf. This program was formerly a post-install(/pre-remove) script for the package; now the post-isntall/pre-remove script calls this program. Changes related to new versions of Pacman and GnuPG: - conf.sh(3): * Look for ~/.config/pacman/makepkg.conf instead of ~/.makepkg.conf, same as makepkg 4.2.0. * Have an environmental CARCH override config files, same as makepkg 4.2.0. * Have unset_PKGBUILD (and thus load_PKGBUILD) also unset `validpgpkeys` and architecture-specific variables introduced in makepkg 4.2.0. - librerelease: No longer warn about GPG_AGENT_INFO being unset, it is no longer used in GnuPG 2.1. - librefetch: Several changes to allow it to work with makepkg 4.2.0. And, because I'm writing this after-the fact: Bugs introduced in this version: - chcleanup gained a stray `set -x` from debugging; so it now has a bunch of extra output - librefetch is entirely broken [^0]: I'm just repeating what was in the commit log, libredbdiff is maintained by Esteban Carnevale ("alfplayer"). -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 6 02:32:51 2015 From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 21:32:51 -0500 Subject: [Dev] libretools 20150105 release announcement Message-ID: <8761ck4p0s.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Earlier today I released libretools 20150105. It is primarily a bugfix release. Changes from 20150104 to 20150105: - The chroot tools dropped support for architectures where $CARCH is not `uname -m`. The mechanism for this ("chroot.conf:CHROOTARCH") had a bug in the implementation and didn't work anyway. This was only relevent for CARCH=mips64el, `uname -m`=mips64, which we no longer actively develop. Bugs fixed from 20150104 to 20150105: - librechroot/libremakepkg: A long-standing bug with chroot local repository package corruption has been fixed. - librefetch: No longer entirely broken (20150104 incorrectly adjusted it to Pacman 4.2.0). - chcleanup: Remove a stray `set -x` that was accidentally added in 20150104. And, because I'm writing this after-the fact: Bugs introduced in this version: - librefetch: does not clean up temporary files -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 6 02:34:03 2015 From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 21:34:03 -0500 Subject: [Dev] libretools 20150105.1 release announcement Message-ID: <874ms44oys.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> I just released libretools 20150105.1. It is a bugfix release. Bugs fixed from 20150105 to 20150105.1: - librefetch: Did not clean up temporary files -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 6 04:40:50 2015 From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 23:40:50 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Parabola representative needed for contract w/ Ceata In-Reply-To: <54A793BF.8050506@ceata.org> References: <54A793BF.8050506@ceata.org> Message-ID: <87387o4j3h.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> At Sat, 03 Jan 2015 09:01:19 +0200, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote: > Happy GNU year, Parabola hackers! Happy GNU year! Sorry for the lack of a reply, but I think we still need some time to discuss this, and (maybe) select a representative. Thanks for the support! -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 6 06:33:38 2015 From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 01:33:38 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> Message-ID: <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> OK, now that I have a nice strong beverage I can begin discussing this. This kind of conversation isn't the type I come to this list to have :/ At Sun, 04 Jan 2015 17:44:17 -0300, hellekin wrote: > In the last weeks we exchanged a lot about the need and possibility to > introduce money in the development of Parabola/GNU/Linux-libre. > > Tiberiu offered to sponsor the project from the Fundatio Ceata, which > presents a number of advantages, especially on of ethical alignment. Tiberius has been very generous, and Ceata seems to be a good match. However, I don't think that we've given the SFC or SPI proper consideration, and I think that it would be a mistake to simply go for the first foundation that reaches out to us. The way I'm looking at it, there are several services that joining a foundation would be able to offer that would be valuable to us. - Handling donations - Making donations tax-deductible - Copyright(left) enforcement (should we ever find a GPL violation) - Liability protection (should we ever find ourselves on the wrong side of the court room). I know that the SFC offers all of these. I don't know much about Ceata, and I suffer from stupid-American syndrome where I can only learn one spoken language. Honestly, I think #3 would be the most valuable. I'm not sure that it's terribly likely that there will ever be a GPL violation on any Parabola code. But I know that if there were, we would be *totally* incapable of enforcing the GPL[^0]. With that in mind, them handling money for us seems like a small added bonus, IMO. > Aur?lien rose a strong shield against the principle of introducing > money, pretexting the antagonism between friendship and money. His > position was mostly rationalized against, and maybe because he does not > master the English language well enough, or maybe because he could not > verbalize his emotions into reasonable arguments, his minority position > mostly remained a lonely voice. > > I certainly don't want that the core feature of Parabola, i.e. > friendship, be dissolved by the introduction of money. A corollary is > that Aur?lien cannot feel excluded for taking a different position that > the rest of Parabola stakeholders. I'm pretty sure Aur?lien feels worn out by this discussion, and I don't blame him. My stance: as much as I would *love* to receive a cheque for my work on Parabola, I think that money distributed among developers is a terrible idea. I'm OK with receiving donations that cover expenses. I think I'd even be OK with using donations to employ one of us full-time (though I'm skeptical that we would raise even close to enough money to do that). But rationing out the money is a terrible idea. There was a study that I can't find (because the keywords are utterly unhelpful) that showed that introducing money into a community like this poisons it, even if it seems like a strict improvement. Once someone is receiving a few dollars for something, at some subconscious level it stops being a donation/volunteering. I remember the example of asking your friends to help you move; buy them pizza and drinks afterward and everyone's happy; offer them $15 afterward, and everyone's bitter, even though the value of what you have them is roughly the same[^1]. Whatever you give them [whatever donations we receive], are way under the value of the labor put in. Anything money less than that is insulting (even if slightly illogical). And speaking from my own perspective, as nice as it would be to receive a cheque; unless it's somehow enough that I can consider myself employed by Parabola and avoid getting another job, then it's not a very good use of the money. It wouldn't affect my contributions in any way, it wouldn't substantially affect my happiness. OTOH, if the funds sent me a BBB, that would likely be a pretty good use of the money, as it is a piece of hardware that would directly allow me to contribute in new ways. (on the other (third? :P) hand, if you did send be a BBB, I'd probably end up just feeling really guilty that I was wasting it, and not putting more time into the ARM port. Both because of other obligations sucking my time away, and because I'm a lazy/selfish bastard who works on things that he finds interesting, instead of what you guys tell him is important. How long has automatic source-ball creation been a feature request in the bug tracker?) I know when I discussed this with Aur?lien on IRC (sorry, I don't have chat logs), and mentioned receiving donations for expenses, Aur?lien still objected. He said that whatever our needs are, we should ask for those directly from the community, instead of asking for money. Several other users have piped up with their support for that idea; a project can exist entirely through donated *stuff*, as we do. I can definitely get behind that. OTOH, having a pot of spare money would allow us to do experiments and things that we might not otherwise do because of the overhead of coordinating with someone else over the resources. In my discussion with Aur?lien, I used the example of a separate build server for automated builds. He said ~"great, ask for someone to donate a server." I didn't have a good response at the time, but I think I do now: That kind of misses my point; if we can try new things that have expenses without as much overhead, then it allows us to try more cool new things. Let me put it this way: There are a lot of pros and cons to whatever decision we make. My support of any decision in this matter is contingent upon Aur?lien's support. If Aur?lien does not fully support whatever is decided, then neither do I. I don't necessarily agree with him; I may try to sway his opinion; but without his full support, you don't have mine. > As I said earlier, money is not a problem but its allocation is. What > purpose does it serve, and how fair can it be? Allocation of > money-as-a-mean is not the same as allocation of money-as-an-end. If the > end is to earn money, then it's the latter case. I think Parabola should > focus on the former case, namely that money should be allocated to > facilitate the development of the project. With the original proposal by > Icarious and Emulatorman, the goal was to provide continuity to the > project. In the spirit of solidarity, allocating money to developers in > need is both cheap and a mean to reinforce the community, not a mean to > dislocate it. OK, so what is the end that the money is a mean to? What needs qualify a developer to receive funds? Who gets to judge their cases? And with money, we have to have some sort of formal administration. Someone would have to be a "representative" with Ceata or the SFC or whatever and decide where money goes. Do we democratize all of those communications like we do everything else? Do we elect a representative (republicanize) for efficiency? As much as a I love our wholly democratic structure, it has severe inefficiencies. For a year and a half (since July 2013) I've been trying to ratify a couple of wording changes to our social contract. I mean, whatever. But that's not really going to fly once a foundation with money is involved. I don't recall if it was Tiberiu wrote, or something from the SFC (I can't find it now (strong beverage, remember :P), but I distinctly remember the mention that with the bureaucratic duties of being such a representative, one might have less time for technical contributions. Which is a bummer, so far be it from me to pressure someone into that. But, if he's interested, and we go forward with such a plan: I nominate fauno. Other hackers come and go, he's been constant. [^0]: If we were to try to enforce the GPL, I'm pretty sure that the best bet would be me personally approaching the SFC or SFLC and seeing if they'd help me enforce my copyright pro-bono, because "Luke Shumaker" is in the header of enough of our source files that I personally could claim copyright on some of whatever was violated. That seems like a terrible plan. [^1]: It's not a perfect comparison because with the pizza and drinks, you are also spending time with them, giving them an experience, etc. But the example gets the point across. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From hellekin at gnu.org Tue Jan 6 09:34:16 2015 From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 06:34:16 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <54ABAC18.6000401@gnu.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 01/06/2015 03:33 AM, Luke Shumaker wrote: > OK, now that I have a nice strong beverage I can begin discussing > this. This kind of conversation isn't the type I come to this list to > have :/ > *** I'm very sorry about that, but I guess it's an adult thing to do when an issue is presented, to discuss, evaluate, and solve it. > > Tiberius has been very generous, and Ceata seems to be a good match. > However, I don't think that we've given the SFC or SPI proper > consideration, and I think that it would be a mistake to simply go for > the first foundation that reaches out to us. > *** Fair enough. It's good indeed to ponder what is to be done, and the offers. Fully agree with the points of "handling donations", "making donations tax-deductible", "copyleft enforcement", and "liability protection", and that "copyleft enforcement is important. > > I'm pretty sure Aur?lien feels worn out by this discussion, and I > don't blame him. > *** Nobody is blaming him. > My stance: as much as I would *love* to receive a cheque for my work > on Parabola, I think that money distributed among developers is a > terrible idea. > > I'm OK with receiving donations that cover expenses. I think I'd even > be OK with using donations to employ one of us full-time (though I'm > skeptical that we would raise even close to enough money to do that). > But rationing out the money is a terrible idea. > *** I think it is as well. > There was a study that I can't find (because the keywords are utterly > unhelpful) that showed that introducing money into a community like > this poisons it, even if it seems like a strict improvement. > *** Is it "The Psychological Consequences of Money" [0]? That would suggest people looking for money outside of the project will develop self-sufficiency and therefore lower their interest in the project. Just kidding, but it reminds me of Thomas Hardin's 1974 article "The Tragedy of the Commons" that predicted doom, and Elinor Ostrom's response "The Drama of the Commons" that demonstrated Hardin was wrong with successful examples of commons management from around the world. Similarly, several articles citing the original study seem to attenuate or reverse the perspective that "money is bad". [0] http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5802/1154 > > And speaking from my own perspective, as nice as it would be to > receive a cheque; unless it's somehow enough that I can consider > myself employed by Parabola and avoid getting another job, then it's > not a very good use of the money. It wouldn't affect my contributions > in any way, it wouldn't substantially affect my happiness. > > OTOH, if the funds sent me a BBB, that would likely be a pretty good > use of the money, as it is a piece of hardware that would directly > allow me to contribute in new ways. > *** See, it's a matter of allocation. In your case it would be a machine to suggest pain (guilt of defecting) and pleasure (satisfaction of cooperating) in contributing ARM code. For someone else, it would be paying the rent, so that their basic needs are alleviated and they can actually spend more time on working towards self-sufficiency within the project instead of stepping back to re-orient their priorities out of necessity. That's an example of allocation. > Aur?lien still objected. > *** Aur?lien merely objects out of principle, without giving any thought at it, and reacts violently when his worldview is challenged. I gather that he has had negative experience with money and friendship, and projects these experiences on the project. Or maybe he simply fears such potential experience, but didn't live any. It's impossible to know since he rejects discussion and feels threatened by the topic. > Several other users have piped up with their support for that idea; > a project can exist entirely through donated *stuff*, as we do. I can > definitely get behind that. > *** That's certainly a proper way to allocate money. > OTOH, having a pot of spare money would allow us to do experiments and > things that we might not otherwise do because of the overhead of > coordinating with someone else over the resources. [...] > if we can try new things that have expenses without as much overhead, > then it allows us to try more cool new things. > *** Yes. I was part of a virtual community that started off as a single person's charge to support the costs. After a few years, this person informed the community that he'd like to transfer the "benevolent dictatorship" to a community sustained model. A volunteer stepped up to take care of the finances, and a fund was created to receive donations. I can't remember exactly how it came to be, but over the years this system evolved into a dual fund approach: the "operations fund", that receives voluntary donations in priority up until the necessary income to cover 6 months of expenses is attained; then people can decide whether to allocate to this expense fund, or to a solidarity fund. The latter fund can be tapped "anonymously" by members in need. People use it to pay an extraordinary health bill, a late rent, or some other unpredicted expense. The result is that people are reinforced in their sense of community because they can actually count on the community to help them, most of the solidarity fund expenses are reimbursed, and expenses are covered regularly. Whenever the funds run low, a call or reminder is made to the community and money flows in. Incoming donations are announced (anonymously, but donors can publicize it if they so wish), which enables people to donate more when they have disposable income. This experience is entirely positive, and has not brought any negative consequence on the community, quite the opposite. > Let me put it this way: There are a lot of pros and cons to whatever > decision we make. My support of any decision in this matter is > contingent upon Aur?lien's support. If Aur?lien does not fully > support whatever is decided, then neither do I. I don't necessarily > agree with him; I may try to sway his opinion; but without his full > support, you don't have mine. > *** That's understandable. I need to make a disclaimer: I do not expect any contribution to come my way from Parabola. This is why I feel free to comment and suggest and criticize. I have no conflict of interest whatsoever. My only objective is to help. I regret Aur?lien's reaction but I understand it, although I'd be happier if he would not feel threatened by this discussion, and participate instead of simply vetoing it. > > OK, so what is the end that the money is a mean to? What needs > qualify a developer to receive funds? Who gets to judge their cases? > *** My personal view on it is self-determination and trust in the will to cooperate--friendship, remember? > And with money, we have to have some sort of formal administration. > *** The interface between Parabola and [sponsor] does not need to have any decisional power over the allocation of money. Actually it's better if they don't to eliminate any conflict of interest. This can be a rotating role, but more practically a revocable role should be enough. The interface needs to announce to the commnunity how much money is available, and to [sponsor] how it was allocated. Any "situation" must be treated on either side, and timely communicated--the interface role is that of a neutral messenger. Introducing "democracy" there is opening to conflicts of interest and bikeshedding. Anything that is not concerned with money, e.g., GPL violations, is something to be dealt with within the community (e.g., decide that Luke will be the legal representative) and communicated with [sponsor]. > remember the mention that with the bureaucratic duties of being such a > representative, one might have less time for technical contributions. > *** Therefore the interface should be someone who will not contribute technically. As long as the accounting is managed transparently, and the communication fluid between Parabola and [sponsor], there's no reason why it would take much time. Cheers, == hk P.S.: I have done my part on this. Good luck with the rest. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUq6wSXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQ0IyNkIyRTNDNzEyMTc2OUEzNEM4ODU0 ODA2QzM2M0ZDMTg5ODNEAAoJEEgGw2P8GJg9d7cP/3Y1fI8huzU2QJYErFWd+4bf 5uZ83WQPoK40FbIPLyx0CJSeX3lDBcbZJxZPkYmaH8CJV2DfOoloGBxVZPs+MT6h SnutCHLsTUvj77jj3oMngMxYtTWtlPiZpr3aVGnOM5G+Ev7qmD2cs9z7nFjJPpzp u5go2HUNI+3fHy4WcVyeHSq6b+Smza2fMEbobm3Kgl1zB/cHk5PVWkQS2T6kNDir eEz3h4ifIDvao+mPIYI3+hf307EhYD4KAeXeWjPKXpJndLrcQX3Kjit7yMFovWGO iMt4bWaQctB8ssapZstNJP6eRqsyu272P57IoOdjkAtPjla0zarwGO8iw9O/asO/ cjpnOmWeO3bqle7F9feOrH97HUFT/bZ51xct94qzy8LPJuMHGrFIBP7n/QC2br8x AoYndJ8nh5jPsiwlQwEU27o/euqs80G1QAegac9v0XU9TQP+h1DHPvfUENAvdm+N jS9Zp4baEUoPfvUYIpvygwq7dTnOoJAXtJNpvzBDpEmILbjo1qvUBKDg/8oAhCbE GfRdOZgtDAZ2hoONqQcRWn+JKfExDnjP7GlIr63hw3UWymBjE+vF4YF0kR01Fb9b XzRxpI6151ucG1I4EuJA9VA+brsoUBC796NWpVfT/yxYlPHpXsOWz2fiR3chL9Fk N9fxqm14WIX9swlnykQz =2UYC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tct at ceata.org Tue Jan 6 11:40:43 2015 From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 13:40:43 +0200 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> On 06.01.2015 08:33, Luke Shumaker wrote: > At Sun, 04 Jan 2015 17:44:17 -0300, > hellekin wrote: >> In the last weeks we exchanged a lot about the need and possibility to >> introduce money in the development of Parabola/GNU/Linux-libre. >> >> Tiberiu offered to sponsor the project from the Funda?ia Ceata, which >> presents a number of advantages, especially on of ethical alignment. > > Tiberiu has been very generous, and Ceata seems to be a good match. > However, I don't think that we've given the SFC or SPI proper > consideration, and I think that it would be a mistake to simply go for > the first foundation that reaches out to us. FWIW, I have offered you consulting and reassured you of Ceata's support for Parabola. It's your decision, but I tried to inform you the best I could and not interfere with your process of decision-making, so that you know your options and choose the organization which is best for Parabola. > The way I'm looking at it, there are several services that joining a > foundation would be able to offer that would be valuable to us. > - Handling donations > - Making donations tax-deductible > - Copyright(left) enforcement (should we ever find a GPL violation) > - Liability protection (should we ever find ourselves on the wrong > side of the court room). > I know that the SFC offers all of these. With a 10% commission of your donations (besides bank commissions) and without any volunteer contribution to the project. http://sfconservancy.org/members/apply/ (last heading, "How much does it cost us financially to join Conservancy?") Ceata is asking for 0% (zero) commission and incoming transfers in RON, EUR and USD have 0% (zero) commission from our bank (special offer for Romanian nonprofits). Ceata had Sorin-Mihai V?rgolici (smv) involved in Parabola and probably more will follow if we become your sponsor. I stated this already. And they will not have a vote, so we don't end up in a conflict of interest during our contract of collaboration. https://lists.parabola.nu/pipermail/dev/2014-December/002619.html > I don't know much about > Ceata, and I suffer from stupid-American syndrome where I can only > learn one spoken language. This year we will have a bilingual website (Romanian and English) and more documentation of our activities. > Honestly, I think #3 would be the most valuable. I'm not sure that > it's terribly likely that there will ever be a GPL violation on any > Parabola code. But I know that if there were, we would be *totally* > incapable of enforcing the GPL[^0]. The discussion was about donations, not about copyright. That's why I didn't bring it up, because you didn't bring it up and didn't want to make Parabola hackers feel threatened by a sponsor like Ceata ("they ask for our copyright!"). If you want to assign Ceata copyright (and since we are here, maybe you want the trademark rights too, so you are protected), we can represent Parabola in court as a victim. Ceata has offered legal advice for a number of projects, including international ones like Free Technology Academy on copyleft violation. http://freeknowledge.eu/FTA_Community_demands_TradePub_to_correct_inappropriate_use_of_course_books We once dealt with one copyleft violation for one our software projects, but we discussed and reached a solution outside of the court. Courts are expensive and for suing someone (for copyleft violation) you need funds. Less funds because it's less expensive in Romania than in USA, true. SFC asks for donations to go in court against a GPL violation, they don't dry out their accounts to sue someone without a proper fundraising campaign. Ceata has the legal experts to go in court, but we certainly can't promise that we will spend our foundation funds to got in court for Parabola (or any other project, internal or external) without a proper fundraising campaign for that particular (so important) case. If Parabola finds itself in this case, it's the project who has the main responsibility in raising the funds, not Ceata's. Ceata offers the accounts for raising funds for the court room, does some promotion and repesents Parabola in the court room. That's it. However, please allow me to be skeptical about copyleft violations of a completely free distribution of GNU/Linux, which contribution to the distribution (Arch) is based on is to blacklist nonfree software in that distribution. Why not make Arch more proprietary instead of working on Parabola to maltreat users? Innovation in Parabola which is not related to blacklisting I assume goes upstream (in Arch or for specific software, in that software project). Unless your scripts are not specific and are very abstract, looking for certain licenses, some malintentioned third party could use your scripts to change them so instead (let's say) of blacklisting nonfree licenses, they can blacklist copyleft licenses (*GPL and others), so they are sure all it's left is software under lax (permissive) free licenses or proprietary licenses that bundled together they can distribute it as a nonfree system. But it's impossible with a GNU/Linux distribution to delete all copyleft software and still have a functional system in the end. With GNU/kBSD maybe yes, but then why not start from a *BSD with less copyleft software (only GDB and other few important/popular GNU/GPL software not rewritten (yet) under a lax free license). And if they choose to start from a *BSD, they can't use your scripts anyway, because the package management is different in *BSD distributions. But the truth is I have never heard of a GPL violation suit of an entire distribution, but instead on a particular GPL software included in the distribution which was modified without providing free license and sources for the modified version distributed as binary. So if libretools (I've just noticed Luke's announcement) is a software that could be useful to third parties in the proprietary world, by all means, the author should assign the copyright to whatever organization trusts more for the legal and maybe the fundraising support, too. > With that in mind, them handling money for us seems like a small added > bonus, IMO. That's most of the work. Check SFC website for how many lawsuits they handled. I could find only one case, for a very popular and repeatedly violated by many parties of GPL software, BusyBox in routers (and embedded devices in general, I assume). https://sfconservancy.org/news/2010/aug/03/busybox-gpl/ Ceata covered the topic too: http://fii-liber.ro/se-iau-masuri-pentru-apararea-libertatii-utilizatorilor-de-linux Since then, several popular free software projects like Samba and Wine have agreed to let SFC to handle compliance issues, but lawsuits for these projects' copyleft violations were never started (and if off-the-court solutions can be reached, that's perfect!) https://sfconservancy.org/news/2012/may/29/compliance/ Anyway, SFC is in two camps, free software *and* open source and sponsors project which distribute proprietary parts/components/packages. SPI too. I would think Parabola would join an equally ethical organization, like Ceata. https://sfconservancy.org/news/2008/dec/04/foresight-distro-of-year/ https://sfconservancy.org/news/2008/jul/24/foresight-linux/ And SPI never handled a lawsuit and don't promise to: http://spi-inc.org/projects/services/ They offer legal council, of course (it's needed at least for contracts). Ceata is no different in the regard of legal council. The only difference between Ceata and SFC is that SFC have been in court for *one* member project. > I'm OK with receiving donations that cover expenses. These are the most efficient way to spend money, because you don't need to pay any state taxes when paying bills (except for the VAT, but that's true for an individual too). For a copyright contract, Romania asks for a tax of 16%, which is small really and fixed (doesn't matter the value of the contract). > I think I'd even > be OK with using donations to employ one of us full-time (though I'm > skeptical that we would raise even close to enough money to do that). For an employment contract in Romania, the taxes rise to 40% of the gross salary (which is roughly like everywhere else). It's fixed, it doesn't matter what is its value. The lower bound of how big can be a salary is just under 200 EUR, though -- this gives you more flexibility. The lower bound for copyright compensation per hour is smaller than in the Western more developed countries, too. We have to check how much it is, if you are interested now. > And with money, we have to have some sort of formal administration. > Someone would have to be a "representative" with Ceata or the SFC or > whatever and decide where money goes. Do we democratize all of those > communications like we do everything else? Do we elect a > representative (republicanize) for efficiency? As much as a I love > our wholly democratic structure, it has severe inefficiencies. For a > year and a half (since July 2013) I've been trying to ratify a couple > of wording changes to our social contract. I mean, whatever. But > that's not really going to fly once a foundation with money is > involved. You don't only need a representative and leave her/him to take decisions on behalf of the project after formal consultations. You need to organize voting sessions and trust not the consensus, but the majority. Consensus, as weird it may sound, can kill democracy and projects. A project member should be able to say I vote against, because I have my doubts regarding this, but I am with the project, whatever the majority decides after all the information provided in the discussion on that matter. > I don't recall if it was Tiberiu wrote, or something from the SFC (I > can't find it now (strong beverage, remember :P), but I distinctly > remember the mention that with the bureaucratic duties of being such a > representative, one might have less time for technical contributions. That's correct, I did when I presented you your options for receiving donations: https://lists.parabola.nu/pipermail/dev/2014-December/002617.html Thanks, -- Tiberiu C. Turbureanu Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata http://turbureanu.ro/contact Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor? ?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri From mtjm at mtjm.eu Tue Jan 6 16:29:18 2015 From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:29:18 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> (Luke Shumaker's message of "Tue, 06 Jan 2015 01:33:38 -0500") References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <87lhlfna8x.fsf@mtjm.eu> > - Making donations tax-deductible Would this help only if many supporters are in the same country as the foundation? > Honestly, I think #3 would be the most valuable. I'm not sure that > it's terribly likely that there will ever be a GPL violation on any > Parabola code. But I know that if there were, we would be *totally* > incapable of enforcing the GPL[^0]. I think it's too unlikely for us to get a known GPL violation (that won't be fixed by just politely asking for the complete and corresponding source) for this to be needed. Or are there proprietary software businesses that distribute distro build scripts without their C&CS? > I'm OK with receiving donations that cover expenses. I think I'd even > be OK with using donations to employ one of us full-time (though I'm > skeptical that we would raise even close to enough money to do that). Same skepticism here. > And speaking from my own perspective, as nice as it would be to > receive a cheque; unless it's somehow enough that I can consider > myself employed by Parabola and avoid getting another job, then it's > not a very good use of the money. It wouldn't affect my contributions > in any way, it wouldn't substantially affect my happiness. +1 > But, if he's interested, and we go forward with such a plan: I > nominate fauno. Other hackers come and go, he's been constant. +1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Tue Jan 6 16:56:14 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 13:56:14 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <87r3v76e6p.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Luke Shumaker writes: > OK, now that I have a nice strong beverage I can begin discussing > this. This kind of conversation isn't the type I come to this list to > have :/ sometimes it's awesome when a project is awesome and everyone has a different idea about why that is. i think there's no other technical list/channel where discussions like this are welcome :) i think having a discussion about sustainability, money, work, is a needed discussion in every libre project. being catasthrophic, we're always at the brink of demise, since people and their time comes and goes while other, always unfree, projects amass endless resources to be always ahead of us. we can't be fair, libre and in constant struggle for survival! but meanwhile we can have solidarity and friendship :) > I'm pretty sure Aur?lien feels worn out by this discussion, and I > don't blame him. of course! when someone's burning out the community should be aware of this and try to care about its members. we can't lose friendships over transient discussions. i'm trying to talk with aurelien but i'm currently on a nanovacation so i don't have much time in front of a computer. > My stance: as much as I would *love* to receive a cheque for my work > on Parabola, I think that money distributed among developers is a > terrible idea. > > I'm OK with receiving donations that cover expenses. I think I'd even > be OK with using donations to employ one of us full-time (though I'm > skeptical that we would raise even close to enough money to do that). > But rationing out the money is a terrible idea. > we were talking with mimex about this and he pointed out that it's difficult to have an idea of how much money or resources are needed since there isn't a list of current expenses and hacker needs. i don't think > > There was a study that I can't find (because the keywords are utterly > unhelpful) that showed that introducing money into a community like > this poisons it, even if it seems like a strict improvement. Once > someone is receiving a few dollars for something, at some subconscious > level it stops being a donation/volunteering. I remember the example > of asking your friends to help you move; buy them pizza and drinks > afterward and everyone's happy; offer them $15 afterward, and > everyone's bitter, even though the value of what you have them is > roughly the same[^1]. Whatever you give them [whatever donations we > receive], are way under the value of the labor put in. Anything > money less than that is insulting (even if slightly illogical). > i think this is the case if we fail to acknowledge and denaturalize our relationship with money and labor. having helped a friend and receiving a tip in reward makes us bitter because we were acting on solidarity but we were treated as cheap workers. i can see why it's important that, assuming parabola as a community of friends, introducing wages (or measly tips) could bitter previous relationships. i believe we really need to overcome this limitation, but i'm not sure how. we tend to think of wage relationships as exploitaitive because they're. you have to be in a place you maybe don't like or rather spend that time in someplace else, with co-workers that can accidentaly become your friends, you have a series of bosses and you're paid way below the value you produce. parabola has never been such a place! but otherwise you have to spend the time you'd rather be using for something more cheerful to have a wage so you can pay your expenses. that's capitalism! we need to overcome this contradiction and create ways of not needing a wage to keep alive, while doing the stuff we love. is receiving donations along the way there? > And speaking from my own perspective, as nice as it would be to > receive a cheque; unless it's somehow enough that I can consider > myself employed by Parabola and avoid getting another job, then it's > not a very good use of the money. It wouldn't affect my contributions > in any way, it wouldn't substantially affect my happiness. but will it affect your happiness if someone else is paid for roughly the same contributions that you made voluntarily? just asking :) disparity and inequality have always been used against us, to demoralize any attempt of solidarity. > OTOH, if the funds sent me a BBB, that would likely be a pretty good > use of the money, as it is a piece of hardware that would directly > allow me to contribute in new ways. (on the other (third? :P) hand, if > you did send be a BBB, I'd probably end up just feeling really guilty > that I was wasting it, and not putting more time into the ARM port. > Both because of other obligations sucking my time away, and because > I'm a lazy/selfish bastard who works on things that he finds > interesting, instead of what you guys tell him is important. How long > has automatic source-ball creation been a feature request in the bug > tracker?) > > I know when I discussed this with Aur?lien on IRC (sorry, I don't have > chat logs), and mentioned receiving donations for expenses, Aur?lien > still objected. He said that whatever our needs are, we should ask > for those directly from the community, instead of asking for money. > Several other users have piped up with their support for that idea; > a project can exist entirely through donated *stuff*, as we do. I can > definitely get behind that. > you mean donations as servers, domain names, etc.? > > OTOH, having a pot of spare money would allow us to do experiments and > things that we might not otherwise do because of the overhead of > coordinating with someone else over the resources. In my discussion > with Aur?lien, I used the example of a separate build server for > automated builds. He said ~"great, ask for someone to donate a > server." I didn't have a good response at the time, but I think I do > now: That kind of misses my point; if we can try new things that have > expenses without as much overhead, then it allows us to try more cool > new things. > > Let me put it this way: There are a lot of pros and cons to whatever > decision we make. My support of any decision in this matter is > contingent upon Aur?lien's support. If Aur?lien does not fully > support whatever is decided, then neither do I. I don't necessarily > agree with him; I may try to sway his opinion; but without his full > support, you don't have mine. :) > > OK, so what is the end that the money is a mean to? What needs > qualify a developer to receive funds? Who gets to judge their cases? this community!! > And with money, we have to have some sort of formal administration. > Someone would have to be a "representative" with Ceata or the SFC or > whatever and decide where money goes. Do we democratize all of those > communications like we do everything else? Do we elect a > representative (republicanize) for efficiency? As much as a I love > our wholly democratic structure, it has severe inefficiencies. For a > year and a half (since July 2013) I've been trying to ratify a couple > of wording changes to our social contract. I mean, whatever. But > that's not really going to fly once a foundation with money is > involved. delegation is not the same as representation. we can delegate specific people to act as proxies between us and ceata, but it'd be in our hands to reach consensus in what we want. a representative is given a blank cheque, a delegate is given a mandate. when someone adhocratically assumes a task, she's self-assuming a delegation that can be revoked/recalled by the community at any time, if it's clear that adhocracy is the "copyleft" of participatory, consensus-based, democracy. external agents don't necessarily need to understand or see this process, and from what i've experienced in several years-long adhocratic projects, we're still experimenting. > I don't recall if it was Tiberiu wrote, or something from the SFC (I > can't find it now (strong beverage, remember :P), but I distinctly > remember the mention that with the bureaucratic duties of being such a > representative, one might have less time for technical contributions. > Which is a bummer, so far be it from me to pressure someone into that. > But, if he's interested, and we go forward with such a plan: I > nominate fauno. Other hackers come and go, he's been constant. :) -- http://wiki.hackcoop.com.ar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From elcorreo at deshackra.com Tue Jan 6 17:26:10 2015 From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 11:26:10 -0600 Subject: [Dev] Parabola representative needed for contract w/ Ceata In-Reply-To: <87387o4j3h.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> References: <54A793BF.8050506@ceata.org> <87387o4j3h.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <87ppar6cst.fsf@deshackra.com> So... where do we start? Shall we start dominate people for representatives of the project? Luke Shumaker writes: > At Sat, 03 Jan 2015 09:01:19 +0200, > Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote: >> Happy GNU year, Parabola hackers! > > Happy GNU year! > > Sorry for the lack of a reply, but I think we still need some time to > discuss this, and (maybe) select a representative. > > Thanks for the support! -- Pax et bonum. Jorge Araya Navarro. ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre https://es.gravatar.com/shackra From elcorreo at deshackra.com Tue Jan 6 19:38:08 2015 From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 13:38:08 -0600 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> Message-ID: <87oaqb66ov.fsf@deshackra.com> Tiberiu C. Turbureanu writes: >> Honestly, I think #3 would be the most valuable. I'm not sure that >> it's terribly likely that there will ever be a GPL violation on any >> Parabola code. But I know that if there were, we would be *totally* >> incapable of enforcing the GPL[^0]. > > The discussion was about donations, not about copyright. That's why I > didn't bring it up, because you didn't bring it up and didn't want to > make Parabola hackers feel threatened by a sponsor like Ceata ("they ask > for our copyright!"). If you want to assign Ceata copyright (and since > we are here, maybe you want the trademark rights too, so you are > protected), Anybody remember that logo I made for Parabola and was put by Wikipedia as a work that don't qualify as a protected work? Guys, if the thing is about money and poisoning everything, well, I have good news: you can choice to not act on the feeling of envy for the success of other developers that are very useful for the Parabola project and its development, and that the community choose to employ full time. The Dragon sickness is something that you can escape from. That said, I'm skeptical too that we could get the enough donations to do such thing. But still, Parabola wouldn't remain unknown forever. -- Pax et bonum. Jorge Araya Navarro. ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre https://es.gravatar.com/shackra From tct at ceata.org Tue Jan 6 22:30:21 2015 From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 00:30:21 +0200 Subject: [Dev] Parabola representative needed for contract w/ Ceata In-Reply-To: <87ppar6cst.fsf@deshackra.com> References: <54A793BF.8050506@ceata.org> <87387o4j3h.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <87ppar6cst.fsf@deshackra.com> Message-ID: <54AC61FD.6070508@ceata.org> On 06.01.2015 19:26, Jorge Araya Navarro wrote: > Shall we start dominate people for representatives of the project? I assume this is an unfortunate typo. I think Jorge meant "nominate" people, not "dominate" them. :-) -- Tiberiu C. Turbureanu Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata http://turbureanu.ro/contact Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor? ?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri From elcorreo at deshackra.com Wed Jan 7 05:19:35 2015 From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 23:19:35 -0600 Subject: [Dev] Parabola representative needed for contract w/ Ceata In-Reply-To: <54AC61FD.6070508@ceata.org> References: <54A793BF.8050506@ceata.org> <87387o4j3h.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <87ppar6cst.fsf@deshackra.com> <54AC61FD.6070508@ceata.org> Message-ID: <87mw5v5frs.fsf@deshackra.com> Tiberiu C. Turbureanu writes: > On 06.01.2015 19:26, Jorge Araya Navarro wrote: >> Shall we start dominate people for representatives of the project? > > I assume this is an unfortunate typo. I think Jorge meant "nominate" > people, not "dominate" them. :-) What typo? That's exactly what I meant: ?Three Rings for the co-founders under the sky, Seven for the libretools developers in halls of stone, Nine for Packager monkeys, doomed to re-package big projects, One for the Lord Tiberiu on his throne In the Land of Ceata where the protection for Parabola lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the table of representatives bind them. In the Land of Ceata where the protection for Parabola lie.? ... Just kidding! ha! Indeed what an embarrassing typo, Sorry! -- Pax et bonum. Jorge Araya Navarro. ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre https://es.gravatar.com/shackra From tct at ceata.org Wed Jan 7 07:20:06 2015 From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 09:20:06 +0200 Subject: [Dev] Parabola representative needed for contract w/ Ceata In-Reply-To: <87mw5v5frs.fsf@deshackra.com> References: <54A793BF.8050506@ceata.org> <87387o4j3h.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <87ppar6cst.fsf@deshackra.com> <54AC61FD.6070508@ceata.org> <87mw5v5frs.fsf@deshackra.com> Message-ID: <54ACDE26.7070008@ceata.org> On 07.01.2015 07:19, Jorge Araya Navarro wrote: > ?Three Rings for the co-founders under the sky, > Seven for the libretools developers in halls of stone, > Nine for Packager monkeys, doomed to re-package big projects, > One for the Lord Tiberiu on his throne > In the Land of Ceata where the protection for Parabola lie. > One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, > One Ring to bring them all and in the table of representatives bind them. > In the Land of Ceata where the protection for Parabola lie.? Good one. Reminds me of LOTR references by James Franco in The Interview (also a film about "domination", not "nomination" ;-) -- Tiberiu C. Turbureanu Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata http://turbureanu.ro/contact Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor? ?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri From lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de Tue Jan 13 21:32:25 2015 From: lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de (Mono) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 22:32:25 +0100 Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port In-Reply-To: <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> References: <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de> <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net> <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de> <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de> <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net> <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de> <549561C9.4040302@cryptolab.net> <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> Message-ID: <20150113213225.GB2095@donderklumpen.de> Hey Kuba > My BeagleBone Black is here so I can now test linux-libre. The only > problem is that I am missing a dependency, linux-libre-api-headers. I have added linux-libre-api-headers to my repository. You could build it with the cross-compiler the same way as done with linux-libre. > I have installed Arch on the BeagleBone at the moment. Actually linux-libre-api-headers contains the exact same files as linux-api-headers provided by Arch Linux ARM. To my knowledge, it is merely the package name that differs and the source being Linux-libre rather than Linux which is downloaded and used for building the package. > Also, does the linux-libre package also comes with firmware? This package called linux-libre, as stored in my repository does not add anything to the linux-libre sources. Read its PKGBUILD to verify this for yourself. That means, no, it does not come with TI power management firmware. There are more differences between this linux-libre package and linux-am33x provided by Arch Linux ARM though. They add a number of patches found here [0] which for instance let the CPU run at 1GHz rather than 700KHz and other things. greets Mono [0] https://github.com/RobertCNelson/bb-kernel From ingegnue at riseup.net Thu Jan 8 13:42:04 2015 From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 13:42:04 +0000 Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port In-Reply-To: <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> References: <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de> <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net> <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de> <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de> <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net> <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de> <549561C9.4040302@cryptolab.net> <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> Message-ID: <1CB624E1-A57B-4BF8-B415-644CA8979373@riseup.net> I also got my BBB, so I'll help. I've never done this before, and I have to focus on school, but I'll do what I can do. :) On January 3, 2015 10:48:58 AM EST, Kuba Kukielka wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA256 > >Hello! > >My BeagleBone Black is here so I can now test linux-libre. The only >problem is that I am missing a dependency, linux-libre-api-headers. > >I have installed Arch on the BeagleBone at the moment. > >Also, does the linux-libre package also comes with firmware? > >I will test some packages on it. > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v2 > >iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUqA9jAAoJEI2NIwdfk/klow0P+gLlYbfQdlfmkGGkKbJGo5Ju >2I2IirZ+WnCxCs3NFQJsNQnLU7JwRvbMtanpBIHW80i20dhFER1Ze4UafcPoNRlQ >oxzYXVBYOCq/nPLYDMPDyys8kqKm8T93GsPvOnDR42dLAThEDKmcI/+3TVOhhWxv >FIezaMdHYozMZO4raxiVHzon9lq637PpOqaQGf1dLkDG+wU2ViqDysPY56/r2XSn >w/xAUzjMtL6zZ5CHa097svyoJExE334dFKQMYyOQkhCaewYS3g9hK2Uj+gDShBfX >Fx0Fh3vH7folxqupAVO6LpSMA/8f74eLRmLXmc2P95TUsaGNYeZ8WXseC/vqvx5T >IBhkWbCSm3y9OBPgjkqh9ByfMi5rfHA5ypwm3WOljsslf8OqMW537XWbWynaD83M >ZviXIyry6oUyyqqwrA7yutYf/AduJXxQcaQLanPC5f+sTVpApeem/mice+nL6N/8 >byPKBctkhWRcILmzRRVsR4q0257v4vganyG863W62sqrGAoBgwKM8Lpuzn5LaQkM >TMuaN+Pkh3wsAI8Efhe9heQWsc9jHWxZd9GAG3L3WHewanPOpf+W4oSbs3KQZEOq >gWG6+zX3qgvSelkGeD70tGu4nby7mV6em0Dp88Rm2wnnDug23WSL71wMRUR65au+ >wi+Za8XhHIZIU4WK72m4 >=05oj >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >_______________________________________________ >Dev mailing list >Dev at lists.parabola.nu >https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev From nicolasfloquet59 at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 20:29:27 2015 From: nicolasfloquet59 at gmail.com (Nicolas Floquet) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:29:27 +0100 Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port In-Reply-To: <1CB624E1-A57B-4BF8-B415-644CA8979373@riseup.net> (ingegnue@riseup.net's message of "Thu, 08 Jan 2015 13:42:04 +0000") References: <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de> <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net> <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de> <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de> <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net> <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de> <549561C9.4040302@cryptolab.net> <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> <1CB624E1-A57B-4BF8-B415-644CA8979373@riseup.net> Message-ID: <87mw5l5cns.fsf@gmail.com> I own also a BBB since one year. It works with Archlinux ARM. I support this effort of the parabola community. Thank you ! -- Nicolas Floquet | www.pharmanerd.flqt.fr | www.logibaba.flqt.fr | www.librehealthcare.flqt.fr | 5, impasse du bois 61450 La Ferri?re-aux-?tangs, Normandie, France | 06 32 93 03 51 | Mail r?dig? et sign? avec des logiciels libres (GNU/Linux, Emacs et GPG) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kzer-za at cryptolab.net Wed Jan 14 22:13:48 2015 From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 22:13:48 +0000 Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port In-Reply-To: <20150113212339.GA2095@donderklumpen.de> References: <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de> <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net> <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de> <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de> <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net> <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de> <549561C9.4040302@cryptolab.net> <54A80F6A.2000808@cryptolab.net> <20150113212339.GA2095@donderklumpen.de> Message-ID: <54B6EA1C.6010003@cryptolab.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hello, I will recompile the packages soon, I just did not get around to it. I will reply when I get it done. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUtuocAAoJEI2NIwdfk/klHxoQAI83fxp4k/X1SRCRHiPGIf/C 9rH+FDKjT9QJ1ITpBMjsyLdh8vKLsXVG9y+lBOlNVo896lTqAI+/uK1iYvQVgDLu g5sbtwPUtQ/ZRY6OEMpcETyftGK1cvVIQ4ilp80p3PAvZ7sNYTs2wGAv1GTBzYvJ 3Va0doOXe+lak+2ZYboQNZuIpILtAEQZqJF9D0ND++Ei9VQqpgIO7HzhN+7P0yAV ecMy4PTyA+iEczfUxtjfB01xpVei1spGLP8Pg3ipFnJ2vx/opZk6WTcwYeBoX7ji YTr+RzgATXTlSOsnfpG728i9/2RANhU/K+jjuCSyp/y+2sb4CGrxeTmLMRETK29O xis7kYJyW+qLWCeSB7ekdnwcmTlquKH6fMy0Pfe2QdvVXMmI3Htz8JUkIRsjgajY rsMFVknXqkwnvHUGRzitcc1IUTEGJl0EU65vM/SpWPWGVFJUzODABQuqVQQmNotU 52cM2UnPR805zYuA3B5gbYKYHZ2OihDqOvfQdVXIzIi2mM6goa5a5rK2gncfYpXt XKYh6vMY50bDgqR6duSG54m+RbIoDFZO40pFwb5ZeWEJ4bphtI0DnBT7OdOg7pl2 8kUZA/i7AdETKpix5MvDiKMhQ1JAdIuY3FUjgbr3bgI/2fh0eoRYS3abAPrTgySr 9+nzMX+kXk+bhmpFdYoW =xkWI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From distopico at riseup.net Thu Jan 15 16:51:54 2015 From: distopico at riseup.net (Distopico Vegan) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 11:51:54 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager Message-ID: <877fwo0yxh.fsf@riseup.net> Hi, I have a question about why iceweasel in parabola come with AppManager disabled default? AppManager is tool for devs in firefoxOs, firefoxOs is better than android in security and dont have big brother google back. Parabola should promote and support platforms like firefoxOs to stop relying on google and android Distopico Vegan -- Sent with my mu4e From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Fri Jan 16 04:41:13 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 01:41:13 -0300 Subject: [Dev] [Lukas Fleischer] [arch-dev-public] Dropping LIRC kernel drivers Message-ID: <87bnlzwd5i.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> fyi -- :D -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Lukas Fleischer Subject: [arch-dev-public] Dropping LIRC kernel drivers Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 20:25:41 +0100 Size: 1871 URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From niitotantei at riseup.net Fri Jan 16 10:10:45 2015 From: niitotantei at riseup.net (Daniel Milewski) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:10:45 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Contributing to [pcr] Message-ID: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> Since I saw several people (including myself) want to contribute to [pcr] while the rules on how to get access to abslibre.git are pretty tough (and not codified on the wiki) I thought it'd be better to have an official contribution model based on pull requests. Reasons include: * Anybody who can use Git can convince a maintainer to include their packages. * It's better from the security standpoint - does not require maintainers to let random people access the repo or (as it's now) deny the access entirely. * It fits Git better than the current centralized model :). I'd like to hear opinion from Parabola maintainers on this. -- Daniel Milewski GPG key ID: 8D43A4A1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Fri Jan 16 12:11:18 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 09:11:18 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Contributing to [pcr] In-Reply-To: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> References: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> Message-ID: <871tmvvsbd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Daniel Milewski writes: > Since I saw several people (including myself) want to contribute to > [pcr] while the rules on how to get access to abslibre.git are pretty > tough (and not codified on the wiki) I thought it'd be better to have an > official contribution model based on pull requests. Reasons include: > > * Anybody who can use Git can convince a maintainer to include their > packages. > * It's better from the security standpoint - does not require > maintainers to let random people access the repo or (as it's now) deny > the access entirely. > * It fits Git better than the current centralized model :). > > I'd like to hear opinion from Parabola maintainers on this. +1 though a pull request is something that only exists in github i think? we can receive patches on this list, but almost no one has sendmail(-like) configured on their systems (could be part of such contributing guide) you could also host your abslibre.git clone anywhere and ask us to pull and review from there, even github though it'd be cool if we didn't have to rely on unfree services. -- http://librevpn.org.ar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emulatorman at riseup.net Fri Jan 16 14:32:00 2015 From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:32:00 -0200 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: <877fwo0yxh.fsf@riseup.net> References: <877fwo0yxh.fsf@riseup.net> Message-ID: <54B920E0.2060806@riseup.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 01/15/2015 02:51 PM, Distopico Vegan wrote: > > Hi, I have a question about why iceweasel in parabola come with > AppManager disabled default? > > AppManager is tool for devs in firefoxOs, firefoxOs is better than > android in security and dont have big brother google back. > > Parabola should promote and support platforms like firefoxOs to > stop relying on google and android FirefoxOS is nonfree -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUuSDgAAoJEOaXR1L5cERWVJcQAKZx2C9QKiXLQRFRe9KOtQ1U gM0Qr5bxfP73k0gTe9c8gO2AX+XXuAmR3q00qikrXl7mlBR4J1/xg/I8bXv+60BD LNZYl/HTgFQn67PLLwcvPGu2FuNZR0mO3E8EUmqRcwhoFzXHdwlgM6p4nu8cc51h evbFTpGpXq8Ip27uj505iaInOg6umXInDgDfE3NwFypOZiFJNuz20t/S0QuJT26R 87vZ/czPLva/9t5EBDTbSagH03txTVvXU7GUM9hzSPeJufGyahMZTTSYxbqLsMry uRsxXPJ2fco/0kw7TavnWILEc+ZMOxneSC0F/30gKeFmpZ+Q4oMEg+YnrA7pAsVJ /xzpDYdcEgoDUhIWk0s1NVYs2t/RrQFDmMxZnR35smPf9LS1Myqw5sW3lolY/fCi cdcMTw1HgYsrDCj0DM6QISO2tIRVYGcmmpjKzIGEqrrIv79ycXlnAVwWJbWZMc+7 09YLmRHA+9k5iV8uW6RQ+gBIOZ+6lC3hRUhkcX+2hJfAVDD5ERbtg0G3R+UwkK2r jxBlBd1Y8e1AFz4i6V1j6PFFVJHIIJjdfj6HTe+QpkqJ9d7riX+wXHbYMBpH2WEB Y1UkWC1WLe/97w6oUoFQfxK/Pusk4UW3tRMLPRWuoriqf2xb9MouGgxb7xhYQc5t 34uAwKXgE0btRu/h08I2 =pS7l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at repo.parabola.nu Fri Jan 16 16:51:08 2015 From: nobody at repo.parabola.nu (Parabola Website Notification) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 16:51:08 -0000 Subject: [Dev] Orphan Libre package [iceweasel] marked out-of-date Message-ID: <20150116165108.845.690@parabola.nu> someone at there.over wants to notify you that the following packages may be out-of-date: * iceweasel 1:34.0.deb1-2 [libre] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/i686/iceweasel/ * iceweasel 1:34.0.deb1-2 [libre] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/x86_64/iceweasel/ The user provided the following additional text: hi. 35.0. tyvm :) From elcorreo at deshackra.com Fri Jan 16 18:25:22 2015 From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:25:22 -0600 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: <54B920E0.2060806@riseup.net> References: <877fwo0yxh.fsf@riseup.net> <54B920E0.2060806@riseup.net> Message-ID: <6C93154C-3023-46DD-8501-645C7BB5509C@deshackra.com> The topic here is to avoid turning off features that aren't non-free, I realize yesterday that localstorage was disabled in the web browser! Users requires that nowdays... El 16 de enero de 2015 08:32:00 CST, "Andr? Silva" escribi?: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA256 > >On 01/15/2015 02:51 PM, Distopico Vegan wrote: >> >> Hi, I have a question about why iceweasel in parabola come with >> AppManager disabled default? >> >> AppManager is tool for devs in firefoxOs, firefoxOs is better than >> android in security and dont have big brother google back. >> >> Parabola should promote and support platforms like firefoxOs to >> stop relying on google and android > >FirefoxOS is nonfree > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v2 > >iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUuSDgAAoJEOaXR1L5cERWVJcQAKZx2C9QKiXLQRFRe9KOtQ1U >gM0Qr5bxfP73k0gTe9c8gO2AX+XXuAmR3q00qikrXl7mlBR4J1/xg/I8bXv+60BD >LNZYl/HTgFQn67PLLwcvPGu2FuNZR0mO3E8EUmqRcwhoFzXHdwlgM6p4nu8cc51h >evbFTpGpXq8Ip27uj505iaInOg6umXInDgDfE3NwFypOZiFJNuz20t/S0QuJT26R >87vZ/czPLva/9t5EBDTbSagH03txTVvXU7GUM9hzSPeJufGyahMZTTSYxbqLsMry >uRsxXPJ2fco/0kw7TavnWILEc+ZMOxneSC0F/30gKeFmpZ+Q4oMEg+YnrA7pAsVJ >/xzpDYdcEgoDUhIWk0s1NVYs2t/RrQFDmMxZnR35smPf9LS1Myqw5sW3lolY/fCi >cdcMTw1HgYsrDCj0DM6QISO2tIRVYGcmmpjKzIGEqrrIv79ycXlnAVwWJbWZMc+7 >09YLmRHA+9k5iV8uW6RQ+gBIOZ+6lC3hRUhkcX+2hJfAVDD5ERbtg0G3R+UwkK2r >jxBlBd1Y8e1AFz4i6V1j6PFFVJHIIJjdfj6HTe+QpkqJ9d7riX+wXHbYMBpH2WEB >Y1UkWC1WLe/97w6oUoFQfxK/Pusk4UW3tRMLPRWuoriqf2xb9MouGgxb7xhYQc5t >34uAwKXgE0btRu/h08I2 >=pS7l >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >_______________________________________________ >Dev mailing list >Dev at lists.parabola.nu >https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev -- Enviado desde mi tel?fono con K-9 Mail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elcorreo at deshackra.com Fri Jan 16 18:25:22 2015 From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:25:22 -0600 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: <54B920E0.2060806@riseup.net> References: <877fwo0yxh.fsf@riseup.net> <54B920E0.2060806@riseup.net> Message-ID: <6C93154C-3023-46DD-8501-645C7BB5509C@deshackra.com> The topic here is to avoid turning off features that aren't non-free, I realize yesterday that localstorage was disabled in the web browser! Users requires that nowdays... El 16 de enero de 2015 08:32:00 CST, "Andr? Silva" escribi?: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA256 > >On 01/15/2015 02:51 PM, Distopico Vegan wrote: >> >> Hi, I have a question about why iceweasel in parabola come with >> AppManager disabled default? >> >> AppManager is tool for devs in firefoxOs, firefoxOs is better than >> android in security and dont have big brother google back. >> >> Parabola should promote and support platforms like firefoxOs to >> stop relying on google and android > >FirefoxOS is nonfree > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v2 > >iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUuSDgAAoJEOaXR1L5cERWVJcQAKZx2C9QKiXLQRFRe9KOtQ1U >gM0Qr5bxfP73k0gTe9c8gO2AX+XXuAmR3q00qikrXl7mlBR4J1/xg/I8bXv+60BD >LNZYl/HTgFQn67PLLwcvPGu2FuNZR0mO3E8EUmqRcwhoFzXHdwlgM6p4nu8cc51h >evbFTpGpXq8Ip27uj505iaInOg6umXInDgDfE3NwFypOZiFJNuz20t/S0QuJT26R >87vZ/czPLva/9t5EBDTbSagH03txTVvXU7GUM9hzSPeJufGyahMZTTSYxbqLsMry >uRsxXPJ2fco/0kw7TavnWILEc+ZMOxneSC0F/30gKeFmpZ+Q4oMEg+YnrA7pAsVJ >/xzpDYdcEgoDUhIWk0s1NVYs2t/RrQFDmMxZnR35smPf9LS1Myqw5sW3lolY/fCi >cdcMTw1HgYsrDCj0DM6QISO2tIRVYGcmmpjKzIGEqrrIv79ycXlnAVwWJbWZMc+7 >09YLmRHA+9k5iV8uW6RQ+gBIOZ+6lC3hRUhkcX+2hJfAVDD5ERbtg0G3R+UwkK2r >jxBlBd1Y8e1AFz4i6V1j6PFFVJHIIJjdfj6HTe+QpkqJ9d7riX+wXHbYMBpH2WEB >Y1UkWC1WLe/97w6oUoFQfxK/Pusk4UW3tRMLPRWuoriqf2xb9MouGgxb7xhYQc5t >34uAwKXgE0btRu/h08I2 >=pS7l >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >_______________________________________________ >Dev mailing list >Dev at lists.parabola.nu >https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev -- Enviado desde mi tel?fono con K-9 Mail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mtjm at mtjm.eu Fri Jan 16 18:32:07 2015 From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:32:07 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Contributing to [pcr] In-Reply-To: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> (Daniel Milewski's message of "Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:10:45 +0100") References: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> Message-ID: <87lhl2a860.fsf@mtjm.eu> > Since I saw several people (including myself) want to contribute to > [pcr] while the rules on how to get access to abslibre.git are pretty > tough (and not codified on the wiki) The rules are completely broken, lead to ignored contributions and people being discouraged from contributing more. > I thought it'd be better to have an > official contribution model based on pull requests. Reasons include: > > * Anybody who can use Git can convince a maintainer to include their > packages. > * It's better from the security standpoint - does not require > maintainers to let random people access the repo or (as it's now) deny > the access entirely. > * It fits Git better than the current centralized model :). +1. Can we use this opportunity to have some code review for all commits before they are merged? Or what else is missing here for this? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mtjm at mtjm.eu Fri Jan 16 18:40:24 2015 From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:40:24 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Contributing to [pcr] In-Reply-To: <871tmvvsbd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Nicol=C3=A1?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= Reynolds"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jan 2015 09:11:18 -0300") References: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> <871tmvvsbd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Message-ID: <87fvbaa7s7.fsf@mtjm.eu> > +1 though a pull request is something that only exists in github i > think? git has a request-pull command since 2005. Some tools use the equivalent term "merge request". > we can receive patches on this list, but almost no one has > sendmail(-like) configured on their systems (could be part of such > contributing guide) I don't, git send-email can use e.g. SMTP or IMAP. Some people send emails via usual clients with attached patches (making review harder). > you could also host your abslibre.git clone anywhere and ask us to pull > and review from there, even github though it'd be cool if we didn't have > to rely on unfree services. Or we could host an instance of GitLab, Gitorious or other similar software. If we decide to prefer patches on the list, we need additional software to know what state the patches are, so we won't forget them. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mtjm at mtjm.eu Fri Jan 16 18:50:08 2015 From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:50:08 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: <54B920E0.2060806@riseup.net> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Andr=C3=A9?= Silva"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:32:00 -0200") References: <877fwo0yxh.fsf@riseup.net> <54B920E0.2060806@riseup.net> Message-ID: <8761c6a7bz.fsf@mtjm.eu> >> Parabola should promote and support platforms like firefoxOs to >> stop relying on google and android > > FirefoxOS is nonfree More details: all devices running FirefoxOS require nonfree software, FirefoxOS has the same trademark license as Firefox?[0] and it recommends nonfree apps. We won't "stop relying on [...] android" by recommending a system that uses the same blobs as Android. If you want to promote Firefox OS here, do you think a rebranded Firefox OS Simulator would help us and not have these problems? How does WebIDE in newer Firefox change this? [0] http://jxself.org/mozilla_trademark.shtml -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Fri Jan 16 19:17:40 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 16:17:40 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Contributing to [pcr] In-Reply-To: <87fvbaa7s7.fsf@mtjm.eu> References: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> <871tmvvsbd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87fvbaa7s7.fsf@mtjm.eu> Message-ID: <878uh2v8kr.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Micha? Mas?owski writes: >> +1 though a pull request is something that only exists in github i >> think? > > git has a request-pull command since 2005. Some tools use the > equivalent term "merge request". i know, but it just sends an email telling you from where to pull, you still need to host somewhere and not everywhere has the time or willingness to autohost. >> we can receive patches on this list, but almost no one has >> sendmail(-like) configured on their systems (could be part of such >> contributing guide) > > I don't, git send-email can use e.g. SMTP or IMAP. Some people send > emails via usual clients with attached patches (making review harder). right, i forgot about smtp (local sendmail is way cooler :P) >> you could also host your abslibre.git clone anywhere and ask us to pull >> and review from there, even github though it'd be cool if we didn't have >> to rely on unfree services. > > Or we could host an instance of GitLab, Gitorious or other similar > software. i wouldn't mind using gitlab (i already use it for work), though it'll require changing our issue tracker yet another time, though it'll merge projects and labs subdomains. i read trisquel is using gitlab now too. that said i prefer gitlab over redmine and i can ask a friend who's hosting our gitlab in parabola for his experience setting it up. > If we decide to prefer patches on the list, we need additional >software to know what state the patches are, so we won't forget them. this would be awesome and more transparent for development -- http://vqfe4xmhxzi7w2uv.onion -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 16 19:59:05 2015 From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:59:05 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Contributing to [pcr] In-Reply-To: <878uh2v8kr.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> References: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> <871tmvvsbd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87fvbaa7s7.fsf@mtjm.eu> <878uh2v8kr.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Message-ID: <87y4p2qyye.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> At Fri, 16 Jan 2015 16:17:40 -0300, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: > > [1 ] > [1.1 ] > Micha? Mas?owski writes: > > >> +1 though a pull request is something that only exists in github i > >> think? > > > > git has a request-pull command since 2005. Some tools use the > > equivalent term "merge request". > > i know, but it just sends an email telling you from where to pull, you > still need to host somewhere and not everywhere has the time or > willingness to autohost. Between `git request-pull` and `git send-email`, I'm of the opinion that people who think they need a website to deal with patches/merge-requests don't know how to use their tools. FWIW, `git send-email` probably fits our workflow better. > >> we can receive patches on this list, but almost no one has > >> sendmail(-like) configured on their systems (could be part of such > >> contributing guide) > > > > I don't, git send-email can use e.g. SMTP or IMAP. Some people send > > emails via usual clients with attached patches (making review harder). > > right, i forgot about smtp (local sendmail is way cooler :P) `git send-email` has a low barrier for use; just an SMTP server somewhere that you can send email to. Everyone with email has one of those. This is all it takes (in ~/.gitconfig or ~/.config/git/config): [sendemail] smtpencryption = ssl smtpserver = plus.smtp.mail.yahoo.com smtpuser = lukeshu at sbcglobal.net smtpserverport = 465 That's not hard, you put that same information into whatever mail client you use. > >> you could also host your abslibre.git clone anywhere and ask us to pull > >> and review from there, even github though it'd be cool if we didn't have > >> to rely on unfree services. > > > > Or we could host an instance of GitLab, Gitorious or other similar > > software. > > i wouldn't mind using gitlab (i already use it for work), though it'll > require changing our issue tracker yet another time, though it'll merge > projects and labs subdomains. i read trisquel is using gitlab now too. Yes, they are: https://devel.trisquel.info/groups/trisquel > that said i prefer gitlab over redmine and i can ask a friend who's > hosting our gitlab in parabola for his experience setting it up. I'm not exactly a fan of Redmine, so I guess I'm OK with that. But I'm not sure how I feel about GitLab. It feels very non-KISS. PS: what was wrong with Flyspray, anyway? Git is already pretty batteries-included. I don't think it would be terribly difficult to hammer it into doing what we want. > > If we decide to prefer patches on the list, we need additional > >software to know what state the patches are, so we won't forget them. > > this would be awesome and more transparent for development 1) I would be beind a patches@ list or similar to arch-projects at lists.archlinux.org or something, that only accepts certain Subject:s, to separate it from the general discussion that happens here. (or, perhaps that should be what dev@ is, and we add a separate discuss@ list?) 2) What about something like Debian's bug tracker, which is mailing-list based? -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 16 20:02:33 2015 From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:02:33 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Contributing to [pcr] In-Reply-To: <87y4p2qyye.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> References: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> <871tmvvsbd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87fvbaa7s7.fsf@mtjm.eu> <878uh2v8kr.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87y4p2qyye.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <87wq4mqysm.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Oh, also, the next AUR version will use git. So we could consider adapting the AUR software. -- ~ Luke From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 16 20:05:17 2015 From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:05:17 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Adding toxcore and uTox to PCR In-Reply-To: <20150106152135.8fccc8f97f0b8f94db729c2d@runbox.com> References: <20150106152135.8fccc8f97f0b8f94db729c2d@runbox.com> Message-ID: <87vbk6qyo2.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> At Tue, 6 Jan 2015 15:21:35 +1300, Koz Ross wrote: > I use both of these a lot, and would really like to have them in PCR. They're both licensed under GPL, and have been non-problematic in my experience. > > AUR packages for both of these already exist: > > - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/tox-git/ > - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/utox-git/ > > The only thing we're missing in terms of dependencies is check, which is also under the GPL: > > - https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/check/ > > Would it be possible to have them added? I wouldn't mind maintaining them, assuming someone were to walk me through how. Just to have some closure on the mailing list here; these were added to [pcr] on the 10th. -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke Shumaker From tct at ceata.org Sat Jan 17 16:52:17 2015 From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 18:52:17 +0200 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> Message-ID: <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> Hello, Meanwhile 10 days have passed. Have you been made progress in this regard? Meaning having figured out the leadership organization and institutional sponsor you will prefer for Parabola? Thanks for letting me know, I have to report back to Ceata for the next Council meeting which will be tomorrow evening. Tiberiu -- Tiberiu-Constantin Turbureanu Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata +40-761-810-100 Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor? ?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Sat Jan 17 20:38:51 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 17:38:51 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> Message-ID: <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> "Tiberiu C. Turbureanu" writes: > Hello, > > Meanwhile 10 days have passed. > > Have you been made progress in this regard? Meaning having figured out > the leadership organization and institutional sponsor you will prefer > for Parabola? > > Thanks for letting me know, I have to report back to Ceata for the next > Council meeting which will be tomorrow evening. tiberiu, i think the ceata propposal has been very welcome but we haven't reached a collective decision just yet. the only thing we have clear, in mi opinion, is that we will keep solving issues as a consensus-driven community with no leadership. and though it's not a particularly fast process, we've had problems with the domain name not working last week so the 10 days weren't really about consensus efficacy. i say this because your email feels to me as a "take me to your leader" position which we never contemplated having in the first place :) -- http://hackcoop.com.ar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tct at ceata.org Sat Jan 17 21:20:39 2015 From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 23:20:39 +0200 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Message-ID: <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> On 17.01.2015 22:38, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: > i say this because your email feels to me as a "take me to your leader" > position which we never contemplated having in the first place :) To have a functional democracy it is important the majority can decide and members who don't agree can have the freedom to vote "no" and not be persuaded (to a point they are being harassed), with the pressure of the whole community on them only because they have a different opinion and the community can't go in a direction without them agreeing (or only by them leaving the community or the community having them excluded as members). I have proposed you the structure that almost every informal group and association have. The General Assembly decides, the Council executes. I am not going into that again. I asked for a leader/representative/however-you-want-to-call-it not because I want some leader to decide instead of the community. If you look to my previous e-mails you will see my view is against that. I only asked for a leadership structure because it's needed for any collaboration. You can't have the responsibility of executing things on the community as a whole, because no community member will feel like it's her/his responsibility or has the authority to act. If a member takes a responsibility and it is granted by the community, that's a different story. There is an agreement there. Anyway, whatever organization you will chose for the institutional support for donations and spending, *all* of them will ask you for the structure of your project, the way decisions are taken and the representative(s) to whom can talk. If you need everyone to vote on every topic (no matter how insignificant, like a section on a page) and everyone to vote "yes" for the community to go in a direction and everyone to have the responsibility of taking action to make something happen, that's not going to get Parabola closer to having full-time committed developers to deliver best quality possible bleeding edge fully free operating system to as many humans in the world. -- Tiberiu-Constantin Turbureanu Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata +40-761-810-100 Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor? ?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri From xylon at t67.eu Sat Jan 17 21:54:40 2015 From: xylon at t67.eu (Joseph Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 21:54:40 +0000 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> Message-ID: <54BADA20.2070200@t67.eu> On 01/17/2015 09:20 PM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote: > On 17.01.2015 22:38, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: >> i say this because your email feels to me as a "take me to your leader" >> position which we never contemplated having in the first place :) > To have a functional democracy it is important the majority can decide > and members who don't agree can have the freedom to vote "no" and not be > persuaded (to a point they are being harassed), with the pressure of the > whole community on them only because they have a different opinion and > the community can't go in a direction without them agreeing (or only by > them leaving the community or the community having them excluded as > members). > > I have proposed you the structure that almost every informal group and > association have. The General Assembly decides, the Council executes. I > am not going into that again. > > I asked for a leader/representative/however-you-want-to-call-it not > because I want some leader to decide instead of the community. If you > look to my previous e-mails you will see my view is against that. I only > asked for a leadership structure because it's needed for any > collaboration. You can't have the responsibility of executing things on > the community as a whole, because no community member will feel like > it's her/his responsibility or has the authority to act. If a member > takes a responsibility and it is granted by the community, that's a > different story. There is an agreement there. > > Anyway, whatever organization you will chose for the institutional > support for donations and spending, *all* of them will ask you for the > structure of your project, the way decisions are taken and the > representative(s) to whom can talk. > > If you need everyone to vote on every topic (no matter how > insignificant, like a section on a page) and everyone to vote "yes" for > the community to go in a direction and everyone to have the > responsibility of taking action to make something happen, that's not > going to get Parabola closer to having full-time committed developers to > deliver best quality possible bleeding edge fully free operating system > to as many humans in the world. > I propose to elect fauno as representative and king of Parabola. From hellekin at gnu.org Sat Jan 17 23:13:30 2015 From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:13:30 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> Message-ID: <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 01/17/2015 06:20 PM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote: > > I asked for a leader/representative/however-you-want-to-call-it not > *** The correct word you're looking for in this case is *delegate* as fauno mentioned in response to an earlier mail of mine where I misused representative. The current situation if I read it well is that Ceata needs to move on pretty soon--read to allocate their funds. So however Parabola is doing it, the community should decide whether to take the offer and then figure out the details. Tiberiu, how much time can you hold the horse before your foundation chooses to look somewhere else? Regards, == hk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUuuySXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQ0IyNkIyRTNDNzEyMTc2OUEzNEM4ODU0 ODA2QzM2M0ZDMTg5ODNEAAoJEEgGw2P8GJg9jVIP/j5m0bhrgkw8PMyDnaViDarO hJI7XE27NY1aARV+ddtj/ZDEWCnEfK2nyICb2i6e1Dl4S4EED5sQygwJdX2Gi0Sz Ufk5riSCIPnZD5mX8/XTS17z1AycSbXZUnzyFqVJvAqXNP/3yoG2Cz/Iqr/FdEi5 nR54ASzrNAlIet4vvLwku+KS9qiPQnMUIievc2eXJ7i3ooITOeN4p/I68xi9FIRA FMtuxI0ZQT26IJQSU/ZOoH+VJ8n01Lrege3F6bOh32GI+ZwFFrumJfxA7q6IhxnA CnQHsjdUDO0XRT5rO2af/sTaQv++wDgF1uf1nllLxvSrlcDTekCoHM0JPanyvN+1 N7gM3qNk62Sf/hjcO8mDVW9aUklUdSP0pJGnwriiIMNHyGLNZEWZba5QlNXmi66J r8vzlqUP7XmQVcN3cQNauTkBiNcqUQsX0hnH9Lmi8Vx6JWkuQYyUzySXGRYKBTX4 FVVkTG4+YGmZTV9qtBoIzfxFqWUGWahwPAslotcSeEh8ZLnX7fegLVPKwNJ76Pq2 MqZtIca69shOaUiZFqUBQuW8u3XI/8MB6Sb0IQ2c3TUw6+frGrfiwA2XzRfPv1Kb iwWkyoYNGz2PfAjowdgCcoHJ+z/BC3vkCxTn0irsEm2/wK/V6r8N4XNwm5RUFflQ 4AEcC9gdPdbF74ot3yoW =qmGG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Sat Jan 17 23:36:13 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:36:13 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> Message-ID: <87zj9hq8sy.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> hellekin writes: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > On 01/17/2015 06:20 PM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote: >> >> I asked for a leader/representative/however-you-want-to-call-it not >> > *** The correct word you're looking for in this case is *delegate* as > fauno mentioned in response to an earlier mail of mine where I misused > representative. right, and i also posted some reading material about the consensus process, iirc including an article entitle "consensus is not unanimity" :) http://consensusdecisionmaking.org/Articles/Consensus%20is%20not%20Unanimity.html -- http://endefensadelsl.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tct at ceata.org Sun Jan 18 09:10:18 2015 From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 11:10:18 +0200 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> Message-ID: <54BB787A.2090200@ceata.org> On 18.01.2015 01:13, hellekin wrote: > On 01/17/2015 06:20 PM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote: > >> I asked for a leader/representative/however-you-want-to-call-it not > > *** The correct word you're looking for in this case is *delegate* as > fauno mentioned in response to an earlier mail of mine where I misused > representative. But delegate = representative in all the meanings which involve people, according to the Wiktionary: 1. a person authorized to act as representative for another; a deputy 2. a representative at a conference, etc. 3. (US) an appointed representative in some legislative bodies http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/delegate#Noun If some of you don't like "representative", I will stop using it. However, it's the word used by most of the projects in collaborations, including SFC and SPI: "All decisions of the Committee shall be made by simple majority. The Committee shall appoint, by majority vote, one Member as its ?Representative? to communicate all Project decisions to Conservancy." http://sfconservancy.org/members/apply/conservancy-fsa-template.odt "Generally the process starts with informal discussions between project representatives and one or more board members, initiated either by the project representatives or the board members." http://www.spi-inc.org/projects/associated-project-howto/ > The current situation if I read it well is that Ceata needs to move on > pretty soon--read to allocate their funds. No, that's not the case because Parabola is not included in our 2015 budget. If you decide to work with us we will receive the money for your project and will spend it for your project as you see fit. We will probably make a small welcome donation to Parabola, but that's it. Our main sponsorship to Parabola is handling for gratis the donations for you, which is bureaucratic work. The reason I asked you is because we are planning things in advance and if there is any progress related to an initiative, the member dealing with that is expected to report back. I simply didn't know what to report back to Ceata before the Council meeting. > So however Parabola is doing > it, the community should decide whether to take the offer and then > figure out the details. Actually, I thing the next steps is for Parabola community to decide if it will accept donations through an organization (whichever that will be) and which is (going to be) the structure of the community: who has the right to vote, what is the process of decision-making, who communicates with that organization etc. > Tiberiu, how much time can you hold the horse > before your foundation chooses to look somewhere else? No, that's not the case. There is an external Romanian project which is currently negotiating the contract with us, but it's not that we will not accept other external projects too, like Parabola, if, let's say, you decide 6 months from now that you want to take our offer. -- Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic (Tiberiu-Constantin Turbureanu) Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata +40-761-810-100 Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor? ?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From tct at ceata.org Sun Jan 18 10:09:50 2015 From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:09:50 +0200 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <87zj9hq8sy.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> <87zj9hq8sy.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Message-ID: <54BB866E.2090000@ceata.org> On 18.01.2015 01:36, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: > right, and i also posted some reading material about the consensus > process, iirc including an article entitle "consensus is not unanimity" > :) > > http://consensusdecisionmaking.org/Articles/Consensus%20is%20not%20Unanimity.html But the consensus I've noticed you (not only you personally, but other members too) are trying to reach here in the Parabola community is actually unanimity. Take a look at this basic consensus decision-making process: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Consensus-flowchart.png The community members who expressed their opinion on this mailing list except one member say (a thing which is obvious, IMO) that donations are good for the project. How are these donations are being spent is a different topic which should be negotiated separately. "Yes, we are going for donations" is the basic decision to make in order to discuss other next steps (form of organization for deciding how the donations will be spent, institutional support from other organization etc.) Let's see where you are on the basic consensus decision-making process: Discussion: Parabola could use donations Proposal: Let's accept donations for Parabola Yes: N-1 active members: "It's a great idea, let's do it!" No: 1 member: "It's a dangerous path, it's up to me to stand up so this will never happen!" Concerns raised: "Money will destroy the friendship which is the backbone of this project" Modification to Proposal: None can be made, it's a very simple proposal text: "accept donations". There is no modification which can be made. But other members have tried to reassure the 1 "no" member that money will be spent in a fair way, at first just bills will be payed not people, that the community will decide every spending etc. Stand aside: The 1 "no" member doesn't want that (disagree but go with the community for the betterment of the project) or other members don't let the "no" member to stand aside; here, a combination of the two Result: *Block* Is Parabola's "consensus" requiring unanimity? I think so, yes. And this puts pressure on one member and frustrates all the other members because of the block. This is not healthy for a community. I will continue with some quotes: "Those who continue to disagree are typically exhibiting non-collaborative, and sometimes abusive, behavior." -- Jimmy Wales http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus#Not_majority_rule From the article linked by fauno, authors Starhawk, Randy Schutt: http://consensusdecisionmaking.org/Articles/Consensus%20is%20not%20Unanimity.html "Sometimes a majority dominates, sometimes a minority, sometimes an individual who employs "the Block". But no matter how it is done, it is NOT consensus." "Since unanimity of this kind only rarely occurs in groups with more than one member, groups that try to use this kind of process usually end up being either extremely frustrated or coercive. Either decisions are never made (leading to the demise of the group, its conversion into a social group that does not accomplish any tasks), they are made covertly, or some group or individual dominates the rest." "Consensus is a process for deciding what is best for a group. The final decision is often not the first preference of each individual in the group and they may not even like the final result. But it is a decision to which they all consent because it is best for the group." "Unanimity can sometimes be achieved if one person or group can persuade everyone else of the validity of their perspective and solution. But it the problem has no easy, clear solution, some people are personally devoted to a particular solution, or there is competition for power in the group, the process, will quickly bog down, factionalize , and/or revert to coercion." -- Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic (Tiberiu-Constantin Turbureanu) Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata +40-761-810-100 Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor? ?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Sun Jan 18 14:54:11 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 11:54:11 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54BB787A.2090200@ceata.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> <54BB787A.2090200@ceata.org> Message-ID: <87h9voqgvg.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic writes: > On 18.01.2015 01:13, hellekin wrote: >> On 01/17/2015 06:20 PM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote: >> >>> I asked for a leader/representative/however-you-want-to-call-it not >> >> *** The correct word you're looking for in this case is *delegate* as >> fauno mentioned in response to an earlier mail of mine where I misused >> representative. > > But delegate = representative in all the meanings which involve people, > according to the Wiktionary: > > 1. a person authorized to act as representative for another; a deputy > 2. a representative at a conference, etc. > 3. (US) an appointed representative in some legislative bodies > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/delegate#Noun > > If some of you don't like "representative", I will stop using it. > However, it's the word used by most of the projects in collaborations, > including SFC and SPI: in direct democracy, a delegate is the person that takes the job of communicating back and forth the assembly's and the external entity. she has no decision power herself, like an elected representative (in a representative democracy), and the mandate can be revoked/recalled anytime. there's also rotation, which means the mandate doesn't last forever so the delegate doesn't burn out or takes privilege on being one. this is pretty standar behavior in argentinian assemblies, but i hardly found it global on literature (not even starhawk's). > > "All decisions of the Committee shall be made by simple majority. The > Committee shall appoint, by majority vote, one Member as its > ?Representative? to communicate all Project decisions to Conservancy." > http://sfconservancy.org/members/apply/conservancy-fsa-template.odt > ok, i don't see why an external entity to the assembly/community should decide how decisions are made or how their self-governance works, even though it has an interest on decisions being made, timely or at all. this is also a standard issue direct democracy assemblies find themselves with while interfacing with the world and that's why delegates exist in the first place. > No, that's not the case. There is an external Romanian project which is > currently negotiating the contract with us, but it's not that we will > not accept other external projects too, like Parabola, if, let's say, > you decide 6 months from now that you want to take our offer. great :) -- http://selfdandi.com.ar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Sun Jan 18 14:56:27 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 11:56:27 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <54BB866E.2090000@ceata.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> <87zj9hq8sy.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BB866E.2090000@ceata.org> Message-ID: <87egqsqgro.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic writes: > On 18.01.2015 01:36, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: >> right, and i also posted some reading material about the consensus >> process, iirc including an article entitle "consensus is not unanimity" >> :) >> >> http://consensusdecisionmaking.org/Articles/Consensus%20is%20not%20Unanimity.html > > But the consensus I've noticed you (not only you personally, but other > members too) are trying to reach here in the Parabola community is > actually unanimity. of course we're not perfect! -- http://selfdandi.com.ar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tct at ceata.org Sun Jan 18 14:58:42 2015 From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 16:58:42 +0200 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <87egqsqgro.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> <87zj9hq8sy.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BB866E.2090000@ceata.org> <87egqsqgro.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Message-ID: <54BBCA22.1060404@ceata.org> On 18.01.2015 16:56, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: > Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic writes: > >> On 18.01.2015 01:36, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: >>> right, and i also posted some reading material about the consensus >>> process, iirc including an article entitle "consensus is not unanimity" >>> :) >>> >>> http://consensusdecisionmaking.org/Articles/Consensus%20is%20not%20Unanimity.html >> >> But the consensus I've noticed you (not only you personally, but other >> members too) are trying to reach here in the Parabola community is >> actually unanimity. > > of course we're not perfect! I am sorry, but that's an understatement considering that you disagreed that your concept of consensus requires unanimity. -- Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic (Tiberiu-Constantin Turbureanu) Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata +40-761-810-100 Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor? ?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Sun Jan 18 15:11:02 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:11:02 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <87egqsqgro.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> References: <54A9A621.8080504@gnu.org> <871tn84dvh.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <54ABC9BB.5060408@ceata.org> <54BA9341.50702@ceata.org> <8761c5rvl0.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BAD227.3060803@ceata.org> <54BAEC9A.8060807@gnu.org> <87zj9hq8sy.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <54BB866E.2090000@ceata.org> <87egqsqgro.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Message-ID: <87bnlwqg3d.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Nicol?s Reynolds writes: > Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic writes: > >> On 18.01.2015 01:36, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: >>> right, and i also posted some reading material about the consensus >>> process, iirc including an article entitle "consensus is not unanimity" >>> :) >>> >>> http://consensusdecisionmaking.org/Articles/Consensus%20is%20not%20Unanimity.html >> >> But the consensus I've noticed you (not only you personally, but other >> members too) are trying to reach here in the Parabola community is >> actually unanimity. > > of course we're not perfect! even though aurelien is being vocal, other people approached me in private with the same concerns and i encouraged them to express them here. even if this doesn't happen people should know this is the situation... i'm particularly happy, not because of the block, but because the community feels the unhapinness of some of its members and decides not to rush things because of it :) of course the process is not perfect, and can be frustrating, but we can't rush things and make a decision while we still are deciding how we feel, collectively, about this issue and if we're happy with it or at least we can live with it. my question to all would be then, and just to frame the issue a little, if you don't want money on parabola, you don't want it at all or you can live knowing that some people gets a retribution for their work out of community's solidarity? i think i can, but i won't be happy if it introduces conflict and privilege. in any case i think we can have a test run and re-evaluate in a year, knowing that we can expand the personal retributions scope or discard it altogether. it'd be a good and needed experiment! in reply to people propposing me as representative/king, i'll say i'll only accept to be a delegate in the terms i described earlier and do my best for it. i tend to get tired of responsibilities so i'll try to share them with anyone who's willing to help me :) -- http://selfdandi.com.ar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icarious at hacari.org Sun Jan 18 15:19:06 2015 From: icarious at hacari.org (Icarious) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:49:06 +0530 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola Message-ID: <20150118204906.a720cd4d849ce7ae7f0a61ab@hacari.org> Please Note : This is my personal and absolute view on "Ceata's institutional support for Parabola" as a fellow hacker. Back in December, when I voiced my concerns regarding Organising Parabola and considering possibilities to accept donations to fund for infrastructure (servers, domains) and for developers who wish to get paid. I never wished for a change in the social structure how Parabola operates but having an organised approach the way the project works. It "may be" one of the options to consider an external organisation which manages the donations for Parabola however I have seen certain problems in the "TERMS" and the tone of talking in "Ceata's institutional support for Parabola". 1) As I already mentioned in #parabola, I am not in favour of an external organisation having a decisive control over the Project just to manage funds. 2) External Organisations shouldn't interfere with how the project works. I know a different form of rebuttal will come in the similar lines of "that almost every informal group and association have.", "However, it's the word used by most of the projects in collaborations" , "whatever organization you will chose for the institutional support for donations and spending, *all* of them will ask you for the structure of your project, the way decisions are taken and the representative(s) to whom can talk.". I am certainly in no mood to see a compromise in the organisational structure of Parabola. I repeat please provide the terms of "Your" organisation instead of referring others, "it's the word used by most of the projects in collaborations". 3) Personally, I find it irritating when an organisation is not just proving terms, but also trying to teach and dictate about what's wrong with Parabola, what consensus is, or citing how other organisations would offer the same. Please provide "your" terms and leave it to the Parabola Developers to decide on it. -- Icarious -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gabriel at epistolr.com Sun Jan 18 19:03:52 2015 From: gabriel at epistolr.com (Gabriel O.) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:03:52 +0100 Subject: [Dev] Reflection on the Relationship of Money and Parabola In-Reply-To: <20150118204906.a720cd4d849ce7ae7f0a61ab@hacari.org> References: <20150118204906.a720cd4d849ce7ae7f0a61ab@hacari.org> Message-ID: <54BC0398.2080202@epistolr.com> Hi! This is also a personal message, i'm giving my opinion: This is wrong. . We are a community keeping a project under the light of the sun. Parabola is a community. Everyone who is a part of the community can bring something: A thanks, a little help, a program, some hardware, whatever. . Paying some hackers isn't a bad idea.. But they rely on donations. Since we don't need an amount of donation per year to fil under stress, if that happens, it won't be a good thing. I remember asking help on Trisquel IRC channel (I don't blame anybody, I'm using trisquel too) and someone told me I should make a donation and maybe I could consider having some help. Welp. . About representing a community: You can't. They won't represent the community because the person in charge of this job doesn't know me, but I'm part of the community. We should all agree together to move on, not just waiting those 50% of Yes/No. It is not possible. . As Icarious, I'd love to know the terms of Ceata, since.. there is no english page at all on the website. . I'm helping the community everyday when I say hi, when I try to help people, when I'm having fun hacking. I won't help anyone when I'll spend money to that fundation, I won't even know for what my money will be used for, and if I want my money to be used for that or this. . In computing, we should control the computer, the computer shouldn't control the user, you might know that. We need a free world, a free society. I don't want to be used by economy, I want to control economy. The economy should be a tool for the human. The human shouldn't be a tool for the economy to run. Let's avoid that m0ney as much as we can, it will destroy us. Even GNU will have difficulties to close its budget for 2015... Please help them close GNU budget for 2015, they need it more than the software sleeping on the server waiting to be downloaded. . Happy hacking. I will help people, not m0ney. Have fun! On 01/18/2015 04:19 PM, Icarious wrote: > Please Note : This is my personal and absolute view on "Ceata's institutional support for Parabola" as a fellow hacker. > > Back in December, when I voiced my concerns regarding Organising Parabola and considering possibilities to accept donations to fund for infrastructure (servers, domains) and for developers who wish to get paid. I never wished for a change in the social structure how Parabola operates but having an organised approach the way the project works. > > It "may be" one of the options to consider an external organisation which manages the donations for Parabola however I have seen certain problems in the "TERMS" and the tone of talking in "Ceata's institutional support for Parabola". > > 1) As I already mentioned in #parabola, I am not in favour of an external organisation having a decisive control over the Project just to manage funds. > > 2) External Organisations shouldn't interfere with how the project works. I know a different form of rebuttal will come in the similar lines of "that almost every informal group and > association have.", "However, it's the word used by most of the projects in collaborations" , "whatever organization you will chose for the institutional > support for donations and spending, *all* of them will ask you for the structure of your project, the way decisions are taken and the representative(s) to whom can talk.". I am certainly in no mood to see a compromise in the organisational structure of Parabola. I repeat please provide the terms of "Your" organisation instead of referring others, "it's the word used by most of the projects in collaborations". > > 3) Personally, I find it irritating when an organisation is not just proving terms, but also trying to teach and dictate about what's wrong with Parabola, what consensus is, or citing how other organisations would offer the same. Please provide "your" terms and leave it to the Parabola Developers to decide on it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > From alfplayer at mailoo.org Sun Jan 18 13:54:42 2015 From: alfplayer at mailoo.org (Esteban Carnevale) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:54:42 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Contributing to [pcr] In-Reply-To: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> References: <1421403045.1107.30.camel@riseup.net> Message-ID: <20150118105442.22f9e30711a3bd51352f018a@mailoo.org> To people who want their packages hosted publicly but don't feel comfortable to package for the Parabola repository I recommend hosting a clone of abslibre.git on Gitorious, and to serve built packages I recommend following https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman_tips#Custom_local_repository or asking on this mailing list to merge the Gitorious clone including added/modified build recipes with Parabola's abslibre.git (it could take time to build and publish merged packages depending on packager availability). After they are comfortable doing that, they can use and learn Libretools (https://wiki.parabola.nu/Libretools), used by Parabola packagers to build and upload packages to the Parabola main repository. If many are interested in this I recommend keeping a single abslibre.git clone to simplify merging with Parabola's repository. -- Esteban Carnevale From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Mon Jan 19 20:53:44 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 17:53:44 -0300 Subject: [Dev] [Andrea Scarpino] [arch-dev-public] Cleaning [extra] Message-ID: <871tmqpk4n.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> fyi -- http://endefensadelsl.org -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Andrea Scarpino Subject: [arch-dev-public] Cleaning [extra] Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 19:11:03 +0100 Size: 1784 URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From distopico at riseup.net Mon Jan 19 23:09:07 2015 From: distopico at riseup.net (Distopico Vegan) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 18:09:07 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87ppaas6zw.fsf@riseup.net> I Agree with Jorge, local Storage and appManager is free and emulator not have brand with firefox os like a brand firefoxos, is very standar. to disable these features do not prevent the use can be activated with two clicks but the question is because you disabling by default? in parabola repositories living parts of android.. so why iceweasel disable this functionality? I went user trisquel and my complaint was that modified both based programs to the point that generated more bugs, iceweasel will happen the same, I prefer to use something virgin and wiki tutorials for those who want enabled or disable and not try to find out if I damaged something. I want a distribution that gives me freedom without cut any software like ubuntu or trisquel. archlinux modify as little as possible the software and and I like that but archlinux is non-free, if someone wants a safer browser may be constructed and put in noprism, appManager is free and no security issue. -- Sent with my mu4e From hellekin at gnu.org Mon Jan 19 23:36:30 2015 From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 20:36:30 -0300 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: <87ppaas6zw.fsf@riseup.net> References: <87ppaas6zw.fsf@riseup.net> Message-ID: <54BD94FE.5090308@gnu.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 01/19/2015 08:09 PM, Distopico Vegan wrote: > > why iceweasel disable this functionality? > > I want a distribution that gives me freedom without cut any software > *** Although I agree with that position, especially the part that software freedom should be empowering and not restrictive, I also like Emulatorman's approach for the simple reason that it shows how heavily people rely on "granted features". For example the disabled LocalStorage alllowed me to discover a bug in Qvitter because the developer didn't check for the availability of that feature in one instance, where he checked for it everywhere else. Given the number of "temporary bridges" and "emergency laws" that stand more time than they're supposed to, aiming at minimalism is very sane. One thing that should be done, but it is not always easy would be to warn the user that something is asking for that missing functionality that has been disabled, and offer to activate it (opt-in). In the Web browser, this will happen more and more, as every party want to get into your desktop or your device, and will use such tricks to do it surreptitiously. == hk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUvZTyXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQ0IyNkIyRTNDNzEyMTc2OUEzNEM4ODU0 ODA2QzM2M0ZDMTg5ODNEAAoJEEgGw2P8GJg9yM0P/RMB9owW3Eoy/a/ThsYB3nfn oUFMU+e/PFW9htIAQvxm5lk2S6+v5vFu0NZ6xBjkPx+cweXOOb2C9igk7Su/t3/k 5UO/FX3vsevB8hqiPbRYgpboEGECi+Pe25p/ardglXEiRDTNb0lI+ifR7ocqEreo fmHPOjexjQKX4Ku70Ma20Hnngr85elhEyd2+83j3oJ5duTTWf6Z3in3iTK7uXnEZ zUhXLRRF6r/gkclvllQ8DiIlz4uBmgUVMYuW3WBjrFbSGq0qnkHCTLNgVG34JyBR CPqEudr2XKqIL5jdUUmSzI0PqV6+CP959bAH2naLqOddOLEKjQz3s8m9JGLNqmNY 1aS6Re0CHtswjUS3DAppLX8CQ7SCSzFAn45U9rOctWnNPioGeADJHFwaGDAUqPH6 1frr8BriVZQ6IkCX5rq0VJMc767ETMK3UupRgBV8f3jsEFUI6rUH5wZiOU6zjNyd uHS8RG6UMB7rjdSpsrBpguGekOelKZZFkqNWHwBACpxtCgLqACt/y0NJymYk9llW S7JhkffYclVNA+LKDQfCLI0AdRSoi4m2j3T6ELMbgYoFKRJVsgKUse1VaEVCTiUa mjU30ctegb9YV9WdfYNqIZQmogF1BswpMKROHoPolWfzoBb6JTWXQXA3hOrrHNiF clZl+SpIFOoSCGHlP68D =c4ux -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at repo.parabola.nu Tue Jan 20 01:45:02 2015 From: nobody at repo.parabola.nu (Parabola Website Notification) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 01:45:02 -0000 Subject: [Dev] Orphan Kernels package [linux-libre-rt] marked out-of-date Message-ID: <20150120014502.850.80923@parabola.nu> biserangeloff at gmail.com wants to notify you that the following packages may be out-of-date: The user provided the following additional text: New version is available https://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/projects/rt/3.14/ From emulatorman at riseup.net Tue Jan 20 02:24:50 2015 From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 00:24:50 -0200 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: <54BD94FE.5090308@gnu.org> References: <87ppaas6zw.fsf@riseup.net> <54BD94FE.5090308@gnu.org> Message-ID: <54BDBC72.4030603@riseup.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 01/19/2015 09:36 PM, hellekin wrote: > On 01/19/2015 08:09 PM, Distopico Vegan wrote: > >> why iceweasel disable this functionality? > >> I want a distribution that gives me freedom without cut any >> software Distopico, LocalStorage was enabled by default again in the latest revision of iceweasel to solve usability issues. [0] Otherwise, i know that AppManager/WebIDE has free license but it's adapted only for FirefoxOS and as mtjm says "all devices running FirefoxOS require nonfree software, FirefoxOS has the same trademark license as Firefox and it recommends nonfree apps." Therefore, we don't support software or parts from them that supports, recommends or is adapted for nonfree stuff. See the Free System Distribution Guidelines (FSDG) for more info. [1] [0]:https://projects.parabola.nu/abslibre.git/commit/?id=35f5f437f08f1f6aaefbb7c068dd71529295127a [1]:https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUvbxoAAoJEOaXR1L5cERWra4QAKYyA2sMfHrg8cewk2A1kMC/ qoSiuyHkcu7pvdjv0Rr9MfFw++7FeaMORlr7b72oAgovOIp5V/DNXYBXkx9SP5Af RrCFXGRZiBm3cYX8bbP6oBrU2R6v0nUScfNPa0FaIAqYH6wqyljUtb2fH+dZq30T RLhrXYVZ6EThteKCfiCHRyPuM3rOJQjabzhSJkOxwnqTyGQxKE4hDB/fKPChJiaI TqWs5M40fqsxgUf0vXlUn1DOaCOP/U0WrpRit+ixU+hHmlCz2gXd9zRose1rVIVv SMSRBGljwCum0UgTliVAaQBkdMbUAfuXlqbszlRuUepOO43E/75MsJVRNI6zYqsF yPcYEZ1JJZOAGnMpP0nA8Rd68VmTzH5OZnqGmb1YHddrInukSMOrYoBe+4/Mhd4k qpTUDytTDA+lkGOT73U5JhxI5DSO9UvQ4c35Obe3/TAc4nsgvlBeBIWMeKROBlye UgBf2i9vn7bYLcng2uDluKmphPHk7cpjE/5UeCCsV9JExYTGNiVwHHvXeO9Kb2eD nxdwfv2oDZry+zIf77Z3Np8sbJKNHFcAVxxesWBMJznVLliIArnOMVbm3xXnBz/e dKxWtU6zhwPYkAnIUmaF6mRuHmCobWqJQBAxYwUFHw0z5BgEIpg+t5FLlMflo7Sw Y8zfi6Vap1B60RwEeSDa =y83i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From emulatorman at riseup.net Tue Jan 20 09:52:05 2015 From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 07:52:05 -0200 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: <54BDBC72.4030603@riseup.net> References: <87ppaas6zw.fsf@riseup.net> <54BD94FE.5090308@gnu.org> <54BDBC72.4030603@riseup.net> Message-ID: <54BE2545.2020105@riseup.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 01/20/2015 12:24 AM, Andr? Silva wrote: > On 01/19/2015 09:36 PM, hellekin wrote: >> On 01/19/2015 08:09 PM, Distopico Vegan wrote: > >>> why iceweasel disable this functionality? > >>> I want a distribution that gives me freedom without cut any >>> software > > Distopico, LocalStorage was enabled by default again in the latest > revision of iceweasel to solve usability issues. [0] Otherwise, i > know that AppManager/WebIDE has free license but it's adapted only > for FirefoxOS and as mtjm says "all devices running FirefoxOS > require nonfree software, FirefoxOS has the same trademark license > as Firefox and it recommends nonfree apps." Therefore, we don't > support software or parts from them that supports, recommends or > is adapted for nonfree stuff. See the Free System Distribution > Guidelines (FSDG) for more info. Are there a way to use it to develop apps without needs/depends nonfree stuff (FirefoxOS) inside iceweasel to be useful? [0] Maybe it could be solved if we'll create a rebranded and libre Firefox OS and Firefox OS Simulator to solve the freedom issues about it inside iceweasel. [0]:https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/619 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUviUmAAoJEOaXR1L5cERWZgIQAKD2tgpXgQVURUlrc586TIGh jczaBvMszNs1Uqm+y2pXrg/7x0nkVyxmOL1i6OwJN+SIwnEYoGBB7pnrwaer7WAW 0uEEfNMSqQBSJ7ok/eRcYFWhs4abJjl97fLveW40MPALX3Op6tXvmKt1lfGHv6WA iErkegjLjwHE7aCeXUSg4eN8YJaco7QAH+71Gv4gqziuUZNQt477G4f6NqFSZVkp Bf14/Vvcaxt8wS5/biMeji870uhE2pLBDz2a+ZdddDJ50lNYBL1kZoR+V9JzsfmT Gmk+yUe53B0YDbP4A6DDY1PbsMBlueiKSZQVZwEEsgodJgGH0B1AweUKVSerUqJ+ 4IuGRCS9RJOFNXP4hp4Snzm+a9ovSoEiCXG+Jfue/iQrk8ji0w6vpq1wCevgYYVJ Gc7gWsS3tkTJcGIyo4fFwziJFaZlruOToTbw+8x65fXW/fbKzQC134xBgG+b1GAJ ljXBV4RJOjvNYYje+DBcE2WdaFENjmH7vhoBy4eKoMzFhfxyo12t0+UXtk7lYOJN BGeFY971aVzSi2XWDjS3vLhIe4zs8HExklIKDYS55SEVtPW5XhwkG5ViuOwKjkaO /kPa5Npy9GW74ISTSbEn2sGmNd1RSOScODq/rW4VxZIn4gS0CDSOBv9QBLVnEo1m uXmSeGGDM+2xHmG/4KAV =Q+Np -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From emulatorman at riseup.net Tue Jan 20 09:58:35 2015 From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 07:58:35 -0200 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: <54BE2545.2020105@riseup.net> References: <87ppaas6zw.fsf@riseup.net> <54BD94FE.5090308@gnu.org> <54BDBC72.4030603@riseup.net> <54BE2545.2020105@riseup.net> Message-ID: <54BE26CB.6070608@riseup.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 01/20/2015 07:52 AM, Andr? Silva wrote: > On 01/20/2015 12:24 AM, Andr? Silva wrote: >> On 01/19/2015 09:36 PM, hellekin wrote: >>> On 01/19/2015 08:09 PM, Distopico Vegan wrote: > >>>> why iceweasel disable this functionality? > >>>> I want a distribution that gives me freedom without cut any >>>> software > >> Distopico, LocalStorage was enabled by default again in the >> latest revision of iceweasel to solve usability issues. [0] >> Otherwise, i know that AppManager/WebIDE has free license but >> it's adapted only for FirefoxOS and as mtjm says "all devices >> running FirefoxOS require nonfree software, FirefoxOS has the >> same trademark license as Firefox and it recommends nonfree >> apps." Therefore, we don't support software or parts from them >> that supports, recommends or is adapted for nonfree stuff. See >> the Free System Distribution Guidelines (FSDG) for more info. > > Are there a way to use it to develop apps without needs/depends > nonfree stuff (FirefoxOS) inside iceweasel to be useful? [0] Maybe > it could be solved if we'll create a rebranded and libre Firefox OS > and Firefox OS Simulator to solve the freedom issues about it > inside iceweasel. > > [0]:https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/619 > Also, we should create a ADBHelper Parabola package for it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUvibKAAoJEOaXR1L5cERWqyUQANS/ZUt3Hv0R4pZ8paLETEqb HTYsa3yWykoE+xw2ZszLBtvYrduaI3qnfEVJ8LjbsOdaoMB7JFDxrsC6ET65QtEX 8UpkPdhNj/cxpTEiI7FamtkDViwT8S8GgrtCGTYqYiavMBGXqkt4dPAi/C09xyfl P2h5kXiqFfeDvRPac6+M+xVZ6YKfd2m5RG8tKIMxoGOq0QuhxSPpoq6q3G7DWqSo q4fvLsocxPZdc23vjOsCcEAOjlG7P2X5f+UYqsp5wWFOY4oXMqxl3owqm7XF0LFr +RkKTi1sh7UAhnI316Zb7lBfTxltDVkGlc4JB7+pjUPZ9rASkZMJTWolhGHyY8Y4 nK6qKEH++0Sy5+4w7QqlNOgIaSjlfbUhjiw3x0ICMgQ/cfZZzWkA2d1X7nYSyWiS q61a3RErhfSuSfss/iyMlly2SuHrx1cfaZ+3nlkEI3cwkyNvBlzTmABkQrJORwZF oVQ6Jx8PCmQFYUjTnNWjkcnX4TSpGVVxpNpsTcZtoyPbGTNA6GtADNUMGY34EQfv O8VyIUFmh1CCYiC3CW6e/txYjcBZ+qUtT0PMl/keYFj2TqqYn6jAw6xBAmnrLsTP lofAcuOk9revwUDAlURnx3axiz24jQC26ibOhp57rkNhU7bXybmSe/8Ac0fYKPnG 9PxpcVYNn/yYiZX3VrN6 =x7iX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fauno at endefensadelsl.org Tue Jan 20 15:45:30 2015 From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 12:45:30 -0300 Subject: [Dev] about cloud services Message-ID: <87iog1o3qd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> yesterday we were talking in the irc channel about mozilla-searchplugins and if they should be different in [libre] and [nonprism]. since [nonprism] makes sure no program depends on proprietary services, icarious posed[0] that mozilla-searchplugins as it is should be moved to [nonprism], while [libre] should contain only default search engines, like any other browser in non-[nonprism] repos. i think this would be a regression, since duckduckgo[1] as default search engine and disabling google services (like "safe"browsing) was one of the first features we implemented back when parabola consisted of a blacklist and a repo with linux-libre and icecat. so to make things clear, i think a distinction should be made between recommending or depending on proprietary/anti-privacy services that run entirely as remote services, like google search as default search engine or google unsafebrowsing, which should be removed in non-[nonprism] repos, and proprietary services that are accessed using free software, like proprietary protocols included in pidgin, having icedove or mua's have shortcuts to configure gmail, etc., which should be implemented only in [nonprism]. of course this should be analyzed case per case (see the firefox hello issue on labs), but i think such distinction would prevent scalation a la "remove all contact with the unfree internet!", which could be a nice experiment, but not the scope of non-[nonprism], no? there's a fine line between freedom #0 and development decisions after all :) what do you think? [0]: if i misunderstood you, please tell me so [1]: i know ddg is yet another proprietary service... -- http://partidopirata.com.ar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emulatorman at riseup.net Tue Jan 20 16:54:45 2015 From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 14:54:45 -0200 Subject: [Dev] about cloud services In-Reply-To: <87iog1o3qd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> References: <87iog1o3qd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Message-ID: <54BE8855.204@riseup.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 01/20/2015 01:45 PM, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: > > yesterday we were talking in the irc channel about > mozilla-searchplugins and if they should be different in [libre] > and [nonprism]. > > since [nonprism] makes sure no program depends on proprietary > services, icarious posed[0] that mozilla-searchplugins as it is > should be moved to [nonprism], while [libre] should contain only > default search engines, like any other browser in non-[nonprism] > repos. > > i think this would be a regression, since duckduckgo[1] as default > search engine and disabling google services (like "safe"browsing) > was one of the first features we implemented back when parabola > consisted of a blacklist and a repo with linux-libre and icecat. > > so to make things clear, i think a distinction should be made > between recommending or depending on proprietary/anti-privacy > services that run entirely as remote services, like google search > as default search engine or google unsafebrowsing, which should be > removed in non-[nonprism] repos, and proprietary services that are > accessed using free software, like proprietary protocols included > in pidgin, having icedove or mua's have shortcuts to configure > gmail, etc., which should be implemented only in [nonprism]. > > of course this should be analyzed case per case (see the firefox > hello issue on labs), but i think such distinction would prevent > scalation a la "remove all contact with the unfree internet!", > which could be a nice experiment, but not the scope of > non-[nonprism], no? > > there's a fine line between freedom #0 and development decisions > after all :) > > what do you think? > > > [0]: if i misunderstood you, please tell me so [1]: i know ddg is > yet another proprietary service... > +1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUvohMAAoJEOaXR1L5cERW7+cP/3FjR6zTM5J+tekwuY/V+M7U FSBT4q6AVeeQKZsbcdCuC5qW1eK2x2cbj/17f4AmvbkPn83jvCmCp1isftF+mUwm v21cO0I5waia9QaUrq1VzM4oS8inq0zJrTecGNg2hF126AVWNDZ0BGg7wEFghiKk pSZNvKgYkCf5ntYgviREv1na3xRm3SL17qUG+atEpaRyPC+lWHb9B1NFKf7jmx1P NsbLcS2zFA86ouWFmJDOL6BGCgr5+RvYADmsiSv1Owpy/QENVkiH03nNbXVp9MND gkLqs3v8fd5+N/Ux7p0nowOPnibarSbAGwNm2CsMdTjLsXKJff5eOk+0l+kjYiyD R7Y/o0O4Dlv5e7Mcd7sa2+Hzb1N0GD2bKIuikK9EOlmVMqO6NJAYLid3T2gHVo8r QNYXVT9r8pBCfn7D8IzR3zVSzNXJDIoM2R1PC/66BDDFxsF5T6e31k64uTr/n9aT fnGVSasTNlb2rHT5BnCzzrTH9ufA3FUXkocP0T6juv1epXWk1dTcprkAO6Xpwdut S5UPToqVFg+RHMc6sxxYYdwgJfQcc+NsJn1Gzz9lgBGrugLLXMjbE2289dOVGsf1 bMTYabmGYPlrz735jl7WH9RGodNDy2Iy+a353ex7SHPX09CvffSUstZsbQJhr2Uc lJUz2gM8RBG9Uik2mMsJ =1qQL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From isacdaavid at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 18:25:43 2015 From: isacdaavid at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Isaac_David_Reyes_Gonz=C3=A1lez?=) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 12:25:43 -0600 Subject: [Dev] about cloud services In-Reply-To: <87iog1o3qd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> References: <87iog1o3qd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Message-ID: Free services and proprietary services? What does that even mean? I apologise for disrupting your discussion. On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote: > > yesterday we were talking in the irc channel about mozilla-searchplugins > and if they should be different in [libre] and [nonprism]. > > since [nonprism] makes sure no program depends on proprietary services, > icarious posed[0] that mozilla-searchplugins as it is should be moved to > [nonprism], while [libre] should contain only default search engines, > like any other browser in non-[nonprism] repos. > > i think this would be a regression, since duckduckgo[1] as default > search engine and disabling google services (like "safe"browsing) was > one of the first features we implemented back when parabola consisted of > a blacklist and a repo with linux-libre and icecat. > > so to make things clear, i think a distinction should be made between > recommending or depending on proprietary/anti-privacy services that run > entirely as remote services, like google search as default search engine > or google unsafebrowsing, which should be removed in non-[nonprism] > repos, and proprietary services that are accessed using free software, > like proprietary protocols included in pidgin, having icedove or mua's > have shortcuts to configure gmail, etc., which should be implemented > only in [nonprism]. > > of course this should be analyzed case per case (see the firefox hello > issue on labs), but i think such distinction would prevent scalation a > la "remove all contact with the unfree internet!", which could be a nice > experiment, but not the scope of non-[nonprism], no? > > there's a fine line between freedom #0 and development decisions after > all :) > > what do you think? > > > [0]: if i misunderstood you, please tell me so > [1]: i know ddg is yet another proprietary service... > > -- > http://partidopirata.com.ar > > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From distopico at riseup.net Tue Jan 20 20:31:14 2015 From: distopico at riseup.net (Distopico Vegan) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:31:14 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87a91dyz1p.fsf@riseup.net> > Are there a way to use it to develop apps without needs/depends > nonfree stuff (FirefoxOS) inside iceweasel to be useful? [0] > Maybe it could be solved if we'll create a rebranded and libre Firefox > OS and Firefox OS Simulator to solve the freedom issues about it > inside iceweasel. FirefoxOs emulators is not included by default and non-branded FirefoxOS, fierfoxOs emulator is an extension with MPL 2.0 license compatible with free software, AppManager not recommend non-free software and applications that comes by default in the emulator are MPL. many firefoxos devices require non-free software to boot but more devices need more non-free software to run android and most applications one by default are non-free but still parabola distribute packages for that platform because they are free "https://www.parabola.nu/packages/?sort=&q=android&maintainer=&flagged=" Parabola should leave enabled a feature that is free, and debian trisquel do. ?Que plataforma es m?s facil de que se vuelva libre o adaptarla a libre? ?FirefoxOS o Android? What platform is easier that becomes free or adapt it for free? ?FirefoxOS or Android? FirefoxOS has fewer devices more feasible now, these devices would operate only with free software (basically wifi, bluetooth) that google android with all the restrucciones, java is more complicated than html5 and js -- Sent with my mu4e From elcorreo at deshackra.com Wed Jan 21 04:00:04 2015 From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 22:00:04 -0600 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManage In-Reply-To: <87a91dyz1p.fsf@riseup.net> References: <87a91dyz1p.fsf@riseup.net> Message-ID: <874mrkbx6j.fsf@abril.charola> Distopico Vegan writes: >> Are there a way to use it to develop apps without needs/depends >> nonfree stuff (FirefoxOS) inside iceweasel to be useful? [0] >> Maybe it could be solved if we'll create a rebranded and libre Firefox >> OS and Firefox OS Simulator to solve the freedom issues about it >> inside iceweasel. > > FirefoxOs emulators is not included by default and non-branded FirefoxOS, > fierfoxOs emulator is an extension with MPL 2.0 license compatible with > free software, AppManager not recommend non-free software and > applications that comes by default in the emulator are MPL. > And branding is not a freedom issue in the sense that you don't loose control over your daily computing by having an application called Firefox instead of Iceweasel. I'll argue that the feature is turned on again and that in the mean time any necessary branding is made. -- Pax et bonum. Jorge Araya Navarro. ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre https://es.gravatar.com/shackra From emulatorman at riseup.net Wed Jan 21 11:41:20 2015 From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFNpbHZh?=) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 09:41:20 -0200 Subject: [Dev] Iceweasel and AppManage In-Reply-To: <874mrkbx6j.fsf@abril.charola> References: <87a91dyz1p.fsf@riseup.net> <874mrkbx6j.fsf@abril.charola> Message-ID: <54BF9060.5060205@riseup.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 01/21/2015 02:00 AM, Jorge Araya Navarro wrote: > > Distopico Vegan writes: > >>> Are there a way to use it to develop apps without >>> needs/depends nonfree stuff (FirefoxOS) inside iceweasel to be >>> useful? [0] Maybe it could be solved if we'll create a >>> rebranded and libre Firefox OS and Firefox OS Simulator to >>> solve the freedom issues about it inside iceweasel. >> >> FirefoxOs emulators is not included by default and non-branded >> FirefoxOS, fierfoxOs emulator is an extension with MPL 2.0 >> license compatible with free software, AppManager not recommend >> non-free software and applications that comes by default in the >> emulator are MPL. >> > > And branding is not a freedom issue in the sense that you don't > loose control over your daily computing by having an application > called Firefox instead of Iceweasel. I'll argue that the feature is > turned on again and that in the mean time any necessary branding is > made. > Maybe we could remove Firefox OS installing list and keep WebIDE turn on again to solve issue related to it [0] though. [0]:https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/619 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUv5BZAAoJEOaXR1L5cERWrLwP/jJU+dQdvvjwx9PgFb99iKJu ZuHiFblY2J3tcxPf3yW2O43lLr5pNzUWDin9+k1nEYLI/PTvEa6CuaYD5A9/7Jc7 d71HCezedOyQMyKM2kLVkIX6K+A3GX9K0y1PtXS580/bqvsthO8WAVlNKS4TKdhy /XUDAlSJ2E4gzjBDyLFQ/hpi0O/CPVlR+ZjoEAc6GWVdkmSs4oFLV8on73t6IAXj Jz6C3s0LQd0qnRI0h8BU0JhjhlQBIcfJMGKzQrAm4ksc2TVsL0d7+ZHQpWWaEU9O ai9h4iIOtEsy1muZ1JCswUs/4etXSWH8Tok39Ss7bSPpXzRwm8AGK5lVVcDhpMGB 8ZQHuMM9N8NHPBsLlmP5BU/5qR/kZXC0mHFHuh2aFv9kQVfjIGR4v5wRpcTSOGS2 bmrPViUuNO4sTqXYMBYdrAj+fXlqbDe7x/S1Pp8940lzYVYRsLiS4AcULYty6aJE 0SCdV3Wn/gETiz/saVTXYAtziKRApiZwk3BLKz5s1zAbrJwtlMI9fJsx5BmTeGXf gMyuSSD7PEVZHAzZkDBSOwWeFuL38x20Hnp4AuduWyaDS83EoeGTsbrguOIPG6J3 WQY65xrpHeMgxlWR48+Tvdn9x8GSpVCx5SY8EnOLcRH9O6cHYdOanDtRQ3poF/mE lGY7cWVpHBJqp695H9ip =srJj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From niitotantei at riseup.net Wed Jan 21 20:10:52 2015 From: niitotantei at riseup.net (Daniel Milewski) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 21:10:52 +0100 Subject: [Dev] about cloud services In-Reply-To: <87iog1o3qd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> References: <87iog1o3qd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> Message-ID: <1421871052.856.24.camel@riseup.net> I find this distinction arbitrary. In my opinion [libre] should aim only for FSDG-compliance and privacy-related issues should be addressed in [nonprism]. This way it'd be clear that you have to enable [nonprism] if you are concerned about privacy. I find the current policy inconsistent for no good reason. Anyway, what does "proprietary service" even mean? Could you be more specific on that? I can't see anything proprietary about Google Search other than JavaScript code it sends to run in my browser. -- Daniel Milewski GPG key ID: 8D43A4A1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From distopico at riseup.net Sun Jan 25 17:29:34 2015 From: distopico at riseup.net (Distopico Vegan) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 12:29:34 -0500 Subject: [Dev] Fwd: Re: Iceweasel and AppManager Message-ID: <1c57de73bae0f82c96294c9710ce8522@riseup.net> Trisquel have enabled WebId by default only change Firefox OS with ABrowser, look at the attachment https://labs.parabola.nu/attachments/download/179/2015-01-25-115758_1280x720_scrot.png From aurelien at hackers.camp Tue Jan 27 12:43:18 2015 From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 13:43:18 +0100 Subject: [Dev] What to call Parabola In-Reply-To: <874mrgo399.fsf@gnu.org> ("Ludovic \=\?utf-8\?Q\?Court\=C3\=A8s\=22'\?\= \=\?utf-8\?Q\?s\?\= message of "Sat, 24 Jan 2015 11:57:06 +0100") References: <8761dcc693.fsf@invergo.net> <87sigemze4.fsf@gnu.org> <20150121193716.GF11138@alien.local> <874mrgo399.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <87h9vccs2h.fsf_-_@unicorn.home> Since some people have fun to call their distro GSD the GNU system (just reading what is on their website) We could kidding call Parabola the FSF distro. Parabola - Functional Secure Free ;-D -- Aurelien Desbrieres http://www.hackers.camp -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emulatorman at riseup.net Tue Jan 27 13:13:21 2015 From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:13:21 -0200 Subject: [Dev] Fwd: Re: Iceweasel and AppManager In-Reply-To: <1c57de73bae0f82c96294c9710ce8522@riseup.net> References: <1c57de73bae0f82c96294c9710ce8522@riseup.net> Message-ID: <54C78EF1.2090506@riseup.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 01/25/2015 03:29 PM, Distopico Vegan wrote: > Trisquel have enabled WebId by default only change Firefox OS with > ABrowser, look at the attachment > > https://labs.parabola.nu/attachments/download/179/2015-01-25-115758_1280x720_scrot.png > > Do you have the settings about it? I need the following settings to do it: pref("devtools.webide.templatesURL", ""); pref("devtools.webide.addonsURL", ""); pref("devtools.webide.simulatorAddonsURL", ""); pref("devtools.webide.simulatorAddonID", ""); pref("devtools.webide.adbAddonURL", ""); pref("devtools.webide.adbAddonID", ""); pref("devtools.webide.adaptersAddonURL", ""); pref("devtools.webide.adaptersAddonID", ""); -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUx47qAAoJEOaXR1L5cERWVysP/irKPldLolrwxBXZOI6AOBDr r02tbd1CizMbaj/lvdIJ3biZRqb9rUvlOQWLFkQVwq0tPKrOZDx7VLYJObCGdHWV oBiCrv+MWk+BzLS+4q2z0BYN+1FISa/XUiUPz06pzdjArXWcVXFtXYCPsBYkw4Eb +tqHU1NEBq2fSXZz/GQ9nXJ64ggaNZcwHWWPKC2yM9uEMKAe14u0NWad0FOlb5N+ NABYQWIRxQU1+8pbgLFjDcpePWnDE/6FsMzg9nMENJHWSYN/dB6LX0IMsY45W12h 4h7K2WHp1d3m6fRW3YcttLi4BECgBF3TqHCnye1WbhnUbrlGLDBLEeRyzKduOTcG NWxdQB6g69vCQvy6Uf2EWLSS666e3vJq7xBmZKLPBDJWRoluvhfB397dE5xgPgmy 0xEknoViBbEasHkIN4TbG619JXMiryIrh1RIrhJSb72uW3Btfv3YdMVHLiNkOAMJ kGQyXYn1Tyu8+YDamPXmyVnYGQ4AKqODlnK3kQLAIUL7p7bpPuNIILhI9TkzX7y2 bBySHR5C5kHyS9ihk4UYEACDixZTnvuwFBUxApsMx4wAMGVlxSw0BuRQG/IfNaGb hQ5JylQzepa3f4R/INxXKRKnV0OeG2Ip8xQmA3jgWIhiY5V3FxAECLiskQ+BxCte EWFrPwyXcTmBnRQulGEK =Zvmj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From niitotantei at riseup.net Wed Jan 28 20:34:40 2015 From: niitotantei at riseup.net (Daniel Milewski) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 21:34:40 +0100 Subject: [Dev] [abslibre.git] Pull request Message-ID: <1422477280.921.5.camel@riseup.net> The following changes since commit e711794db4c0736cddf7e45fb4408f79fa93d765: pacman-4.2.0-6.parabola1: pull from upstream main branch (2015-01-28 02:10:45 -0200) are available in the git repository at: https://gitorious.org/niitotantei/abslibre.git for you to fetch changes up to 9109fbad5ccb3416f621957bd894180696d83c4f: vim-autotag: add new package to [pcr] (2015-01-28 20:54:36 +0100) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Milewski (2): smartypants: add new package to [pcr] vim-autotag: add new package to [pcr] pcr/smartypants/PKGBUILD | 30 +++++ pcr/vim-autotag/LICENSE | 288 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ pcr/vim-autotag/PKGBUILD | 35 ++++++ 3 files changed, 353 insertions(+) create mode 100644 pcr/smartypants/PKGBUILD create mode 100644 pcr/vim-autotag/LICENSE create mode 100644 pcr/vim-autotag/PKGBUILD -- Daniel Milewski GPG key ID: 8D43A4A1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nobody at repo.parabola.nu Thu Jan 29 03:05:39 2015 From: nobody at repo.parabola.nu (Parabola Website Notification) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 03:05:39 -0000 Subject: [Dev] Orphan Libre package [icecat] marked out-of-date Message-ID: <20150129030539.850.33032@parabola.nu> biserangeloff at gmail.com wants to notify you that the following packages may be out-of-date: * icecat 31.2.0-4 [libre] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/i686/icecat/ * icecat 31.2.0-4 [libre] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/x86_64/icecat/ * icecat-debug 31.2.0-4 [libre] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/i686/icecat-debug/ * icecat-debug 31.2.0-4 [libre] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/x86_64/icecat-debug/ The user provided the following additional text: new version announced http://savannah.gnu.org/forum/forum.php?forum_id=8192 From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 29 20:03:12 2015 From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 15:03:12 -0500 Subject: [Dev] [abslibre.git] Pull request In-Reply-To: <1422477280.921.5.camel@riseup.net> References: <1422477280.921.5.camel@riseup.net> Message-ID: <874mr9cq2n.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> I'm not at home right now, and the Internet here is sketchy, so I'll have to wait until tonight to actually merge. At Wed, 28 Jan 2015 21:34:40 +0100, Daniel Milewski wrote: > [1 ] > [1.1 ] > The following changes since commit > e711794db4c0736cddf7e45fb4408f79fa93d765: > > pacman-4.2.0-6.parabola1: pull from upstream main branch (2015-01-28 > 02:10:45 -0200) > > are available in the git repository at: > > https://gitorious.org/niitotantei/abslibre.git > > for you to fetch changes up to 9109fbad5ccb3416f621957bd894180696d83c4f: > > vim-autotag: add new package to [pcr] (2015-01-28 20:54:36 +0100) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Daniel Milewski (2): > smartypants: add new package to [pcr] > vim-autotag: add new package to [pcr] > > pcr/smartypants/PKGBUILD | 30 +++++ In license=(), can you use specifiy which version of the BSD license is used instead of just writing 'BSD' (that is BSD1/BSD2/BSD3/BSD4, depending on how many clauses there are). The libretools program "pkgbuild-check-nonfree" checks for this and other issues. > pcr/vim-autotag/LICENSE | 288 > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > pcr/vim-autotag/PKGBUILD | 35 ++++++ > 3 files changed, 353 insertions(+) > create mode 100644 pcr/smartypants/PKGBUILD > create mode 100644 pcr/vim-autotag/LICENSE > create mode 100644 pcr/vim-autotag/PKGBUILD Instead of including LICENSE manually, can you just install a symlink to `/usr/share/licenses/vim/license.txt`? -- Happy hacking, ~ Luke "I really need to reconfigure GPG" Shumaker From niitotantei at riseup.net Thu Jan 29 21:05:31 2015 From: niitotantei at riseup.net (Daniel Milewski) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 22:05:31 +0100 Subject: [Dev] [abslibre.git] Pull request In-Reply-To: <874mr9cq2n.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> References: <1422477280.921.5.camel@riseup.net> <874mr9cq2n.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1422565531.1072.1.camel@riseup.net> I made both changes and pushed them to Gitorious. -- Daniel Milewski GPG key ID: 8D43A4A1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From hellekin at gnu.org Fri Jan 30 02:58:31 2015 From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 23:58:31 -0300 Subject: [Dev] gajim 0.16 Message-ID: <54CAF357.8010100@gnu.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Hello, gajim 0.15 was working well. Gajim 0.16 has broken MUC. In addition, it requires PyOpenSSL from Python 2.7, which leads to the following error: $ sudo pacman -S python-pyopenssl resolving dependencies... looking for conflicting packages... Packages (3) python-cryptography-0.7.2-1 python-six-1.9.0-1 python-pyopenssl-0.14-3 Total Download Size: 0.43 MiB Total Installed Size: 4.26 MiB :: Proceed with installation? [Y/n] :: Retrieving packages ... python-cryptography-0.7.2-1-x86_64 296.1 KiB 120K/s 00:02 [############################################################] 100% python-pyopenssl-0.14-3-any 129.9 KiB 387K/s 00:00 [############################################################] 100% python-six-1.9.0-1-any 17.0 KiB 5.54M/s 00:00 [############################################################] 100% (3/3) checking keys in keyring [############################################################] 100% (3/3) checking package integrity [############################################################] 100% (3/3) loading package files [############################################################] 100% (3/3) checking for file conflicts [############################################################] 100% error: failed to commit transaction (conflicting files) python-six: /usr/lib/python3.4/site-packages/__pycache__/six.cpython-34.pyc exists in filesystem python-six: /usr/lib/python3.4/site-packages/six.py exists in filesystem Errors occurred, no packages were upgraded. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUyvNOXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQ0IyNkIyRTNDNzEyMTc2OUEzNEM4ODU0 ODA2QzM2M0ZDMTg5ODNEAAoJEEgGw2P8GJg9XMYQALVhHxiayyBiZnRp/HhjyMEY LIO/LjoZOCHks8d9BPaEBjLdJBnc8YZ3hkbz1N0UPnzCOC2tEKfi+jVBLxGzHH4k 6qOxzTj7A4lXIu3ymIlYA2fdRwOTE1408MDFCMDmLwLFHqQ2/vrV0D3jM2BQe7Sm OAsSZ+8YjntanLrLm3tANityO8AWJE42RcOrIauI5t7tkDy/dWvFwQPXShMHC4+J 2ixdrYKx65iPU8uwZaqmtrCDHNat9tIcEEN9R1yOF9fpabW9nxAXtU5dZrHVm/Tw 1Rpx94xWDIYmuce/dP+TEV+H/lv2EuUfv9/ADVY4BlZa0vUs4Qn2+d/1EM5MUNWi r46C0pOHdL/PwRZFjnYgkUz5/Xq+vtG5dXuyPBMcJJtRCwdK+EqgW909+I7uiL2J P+3r1qHVJjMtsjM7N161S1Rnlqobxzv/zT/s8dWDm3O5mwbekqj/0fMkoEsYXo/O r5dej9DBFnjHfoMrks1KMV3yKic2lT4nnFBE1CEzdFp5ZpO5an3lmzqbhiZlP5JB h+76Q2XRk/v0/Vea30jefQUFTtH+c7FmiluyGjMlubpdyIoBdmt2Eczwau2v73NE RZI3R1eJjd1Dq1r8mg2zFWAKmyLmFzuD0JgoThofcDB4GNtkcF5hWa3i8gwNjWNh lqkOhfmPpp4llG9m5fhV =lZc9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From aurelien at hackers.camp Fri Jan 30 03:29:18 2015 From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 04:29:18 +0100 Subject: [Dev] gajim 0.16 In-Reply-To: <54CAF357.8010100@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Thu, 29 Jan 2015 23:58:31 -0300") References: <54CAF357.8010100@gnu.org> Message-ID: <87pp9x6j5d.fsf@unicorn.home> hellekin writes: > Hello, > > gajim 0.15 was working well. Gajim 0.16 has broken MUC. In addition, > it requires PyOpenSSL from Python 2.7, which leads to the following error: > > $ sudo pacman -S python-pyopenssl > resolving dependencies... > looking for conflicting packages... > > Packages (3) python-cryptography-0.7.2-1 python-six-1.9.0-1 > python-pyopenssl-0.14-3 > > Total Download Size: 0.43 MiB > Total Installed Size: 4.26 MiB > > :: Proceed with installation? [Y/n] > :: Retrieving packages ... > python-cryptography-0.7.2-1-x86_64 > 296.1 KiB 120K/s 00:02 > [############################################################] 100% > python-pyopenssl-0.14-3-any > 129.9 KiB 387K/s 00:00 > [############################################################] 100% > python-six-1.9.0-1-any > 17.0 KiB 5.54M/s 00:00 > [############################################################] 100% > (3/3) checking keys in keyring > > [############################################################] 100% > (3/3) checking package integrity > > [############################################################] 100% > (3/3) loading package files > > [############################################################] 100% > (3/3) checking for file conflicts > > [############################################################] 100% > error: failed to commit transaction (conflicting files) > python-six: > /usr/lib/python3.4/site-packages/__pycache__/six.cpython-34.pyc exists > in filesystem > python-six: /usr/lib/python3.4/site-packages/six.py exists in filesystem > Errors occurred, no packages were upgraded. > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev [uncle at bob parabola]$ sudo pacman -S gajim [sudo] password for uncle: resolving dependencies... looking for conflicting packages... Packages (9) python2-cffi-0.8.6-1 python2-cryptography-0.7.2-1 python2-enum34-1.0.4-1 python2-nbxmpp-0.5.2-1 python2-ply-3.4-4 python2-pyasn1-0.1.7-2 python2-pycparser-2.10-4 python2-pyopenssl-0.14-3 gajim-0.16-1 Total Download Size: 4.01 MiB Total Installed Size: 25.90 MiB :: Proceed with installation? [Y/n] :: Retrieving packages ... python2-pyasn1-0.1.7-2-any 54.6 KiB 390K/s 00:00 [#######################################################] 100% python2-cryptography-0.7.2-1-x86_64 291.7 KiB 259K/s 00:01 [#######################################################] 100% python2-nbxmpp-0.5.2-1-any 127.1 KiB 282K/s 00:00 [#######################################################] 100% gajim-0.16-1-any 3.5 MiB 247K/s 00:15 [#######################################################] 100% python2-enum34-1.0.4-1-any 43.4 KiB 381K/s 00:00 [#######################################################] 100% (9/9) checking keys in keyring [#######################################################] 100% (9/9) checking package integrity [#######################################################] 100% (9/9) loading package files [#######################################################] 100% (9/9) checking for file conflicts [#######################################################] 100% (9/9) checking available disk space [#######################################################] 100% (1/9) installing python2-pyasn1 [#######################################################] 100% (2/9) installing python2-ply [#######################################################] 100% (3/9) installing python2-pycparser [#######################################################] 100% (4/9) installing python2-cffi [#######################################################] 100% (5/9) installing python2-enum34 [#######################################################] 100% (6/9) installing python2-cryptography [#######################################################] 100% (7/9) installing python2-pyopenssl [#######################################################] 100% (8/9) installing python2-nbxmpp [#######################################################] 100% (9/9) installing gajim [#######################################################] 100% Optional dependencies for gajim python2-dbus: dbus support [installed] farstream-0.1: for video/voice support gstreamer0.10-bad: for video/voice support [installed] gstreamer0.10-python: for video/voice support [installed] gtkspell: for spelling support [installed] libxss: for idle module [installed] notification-daemon: for desktop notification python2-gnomekeyring: for GnomeKeyring support python2-crypto: support for E2E encryption [installed] python2-docutils: for RST generator support gupnp-igd: for UPnP-IGD support [uncle at bob parabola]$ Seems to works fine here. -- Aurelien Desbrieres http://www.hackers.camp -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hellekin at gnu.org Fri Jan 30 03:58:53 2015 From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 00:58:53 -0300 Subject: [Dev] gajim 0.16 In-Reply-To: <87pp9x6j5d.fsf@unicorn.home> References: <54CAF357.8010100@gnu.org> <87pp9x6j5d.fsf@unicorn.home> Message-ID: <54CB017D.4070004@gnu.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 01/30/2015 12:29 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote: > > [uncle at bob parabola]$ sudo pacman -S gajim > > Seems to works fine here. > *** Yes, that part works. Then, running gajim complains about insecure SSL, and asks for PyOpenSSL... Back to square one. == hk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUywF1XxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQ0IyNkIyRTNDNzEyMTc2OUEzNEM4ODU0 ODA2QzM2M0ZDMTg5ODNEAAoJEEgGw2P8GJg9Mi0P/3KR9bSwytjPvM1HCY9fbbjp kAPipANKlF6MRJrAPz+xB5ElnhZ/6F9DMP+htTLLB+WK0AJvrHv4spiIYqInNs2i wAxkpRzjzK+1C4k9/dlQJ8N5uUa7uDidcZeTnlesT4nLmmKMHSJiFYRjOhMy+ei7 6qH9wkllzjFR27zlWCOCCWDZslxnO+nEuR6MKbQt3AKiLj45Qfe5HixBoHpMCF3k l1/QNUYhY7uSsDKpCiz517EoJHEtgCkqcZSV1QWTaUsnKgV+eZTvJtqB4h31LpBa rwoJLMh8x9lE7h28zmRZpHHcOSLiX/YBepgO06I2O2Ps2IxiSTDLQlaGMffsHGDu WzbG15bVi2wwrD2P5YlFUNEwyfgw/OJ7aOAyfm12uE7IyfWfpNpD/XKyvKdI0jnU wJSgt/7D4ZO1gbrG42PgcVT21v28OceW8DrX+9vY2TTq/UBaM9zUPKuOD15j2i6u 1uAD+Llvj7JCMfMcneGxw6pgQqbHWSWZGoMduUkPt9AEkfq+Odxsjftu3r1XqppB lybZS0EranBHOwxQzO1kHCCeLDm6F5C1YcZxwh3kZHY/XYKw7bTGNdRSHhdauT20 XsAoAy+rkNpvWqbedm1WD3NUJ9gXJWHWWHE9afK2r75+CkEcEmbszX77UX3RXrZs OzxOhjRB+zYOds7gm8uq =57MZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hellekin at gnu.org Fri Jan 30 05:06:00 2015 From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 02:06:00 -0300 Subject: [Dev] gajim 0.16 In-Reply-To: <87iofo7uk2.fsf@unicorn.home> References: <54CAF357.8010100@gnu.org> <87pp9x6j5d.fsf@unicorn.home> <54CB017D.4070004@gnu.org> <87iofo7uk2.fsf@unicorn.home> Message-ID: <54CB1138.30602@gnu.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Duh... I had a compiled version in /usr/local... A splendid illustration of why one should not multitask: you forget about what you're doing. So, as I discovered that Gajim 0.16 did not let me in any conference room, I removed the package and try to compile it in order to figure out why that happened. And with the compiled version, came the requirement for PyOpenSSL, and the conflict with Python 3.4. So in any case, gajim 0.16 is problematic because MUC does not work and gajim 0.15 or gajim source are not available for compilation. == hk P.S.: at least I have one on one chat... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUyxExXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQ0IyNkIyRTNDNzEyMTc2OUEzNEM4ODU0 ODA2QzM2M0ZDMTg5ODNEAAoJEEgGw2P8GJg9LP4QAIGuQeg41MdyF8g4aPnfKL9n tjEbe9wUz1kqAmGD6Y3CSM2l97ZsbPkzqbPRm7wYNj03VkNOz47fnkMnBctBbUOh pKdG97nFIHEB953dmjr3oCziQAYAYgbzPlzu5056/GMDdAiE5MChOLed++TJM8Ft a1kB2npbaPfuSFmmlklbkzh5JP/YzFyNwsX2ksTymnOXsJtx/+nvTQHL+Z/kryR7 yyl31EECZzfqgx96r+f6gly8HOlNbUJeXw/OVPp/F/OKSvp96iuG/Xd73wjhR2VA Rpx1HfTWCzLcUPNypjvmBpOQJLSzqkOonw7OXhrSMTuK8rSRq39WvMNiPsaQqboL xRBgRwuhffjEcrXGaAnws5yQp958JW/Zh20GLWQzepHpHl3EnWsQrRCLaDJeWpLk PlQ5d7vAQDKYbcZs2gwUcG++xSxx8+84Et1jm0oZHpMsgRtAmLiRk/foj9PZJvT+ WUsXF9vzUq+BzZqX+dxkBiGXAthcSo++knfHxQ0NizFapwptsDn9Wp9N/faaDBJt J5dl5IgFwxdOHNHJBeBGOxM2X9BmAGBUuBihiLla4C5bO8ZwQ2RGrfuPoFuSwQMA NG2Rz1k9l1Y9d6xHsWHxw5wQHFVScZjWR5k9BQ1E5ClPC7W1fEdIhplQ3N9nICA1 cP5qMqp8Ob5YyEEHDUxJ =9oTM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gabriel at epistolr.com Fri Jan 30 08:03:22 2015 From: gabriel at epistolr.com (Gabriel O.) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 09:03:22 +0100 Subject: [Dev] gajim 0.16 In-Reply-To: <54CB1138.30602@gnu.org> References: <54CAF357.8010100@gnu.org> <87pp9x6j5d.fsf@unicorn.home> <54CB017D.4070004@gnu.org> <87iofo7uk2.fsf@unicorn.home> <54CB1138.30602@gnu.org> Message-ID: <54CB3ACA.1030401@epistolr.com> Hello, I had a similar issue with ncmpcpp (not being able to use it like before). You can find the previous version here: And the sig file here: Happy hacking. :-) hellekin wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > Duh... I had a compiled version in /usr/local... A splendid > illustration of why one should not multitask: you forget about what > you're doing. > > So, as I discovered that Gajim 0.16 did not let me in any conference > room, I removed the package and try to compile it in order to figure out > why that happened. And with the compiled version, came the requirement > for PyOpenSSL, and the conflict with Python 3.4. > > So in any case, gajim 0.16 is problematic because MUC does not work and > gajim 0.15 or gajim source are not available for compilation. > > == > hk > > P.S.: at least I have one on one chat... > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2 > > iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUyxExXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w > ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQ0IyNkIyRTNDNzEyMTc2OUEzNEM4ODU0 > ODA2QzM2M0ZDMTg5ODNEAAoJEEgGw2P8GJg9LP4QAIGuQeg41MdyF8g4aPnfKL9n > tjEbe9wUz1kqAmGD6Y3CSM2l97ZsbPkzqbPRm7wYNj03VkNOz47fnkMnBctBbUOh > pKdG97nFIHEB953dmjr3oCziQAYAYgbzPlzu5056/GMDdAiE5MChOLed++TJM8Ft > a1kB2npbaPfuSFmmlklbkzh5JP/YzFyNwsX2ksTymnOXsJtx/+nvTQHL+Z/kryR7 > yyl31EECZzfqgx96r+f6gly8HOlNbUJeXw/OVPp/F/OKSvp96iuG/Xd73wjhR2VA > Rpx1HfTWCzLcUPNypjvmBpOQJLSzqkOonw7OXhrSMTuK8rSRq39WvMNiPsaQqboL > xRBgRwuhffjEcrXGaAnws5yQp958JW/Zh20GLWQzepHpHl3EnWsQrRCLaDJeWpLk > PlQ5d7vAQDKYbcZs2gwUcG++xSxx8+84Et1jm0oZHpMsgRtAmLiRk/foj9PZJvT+ > WUsXF9vzUq+BzZqX+dxkBiGXAthcSo++knfHxQ0NizFapwptsDn9Wp9N/faaDBJt > J5dl5IgFwxdOHNHJBeBGOxM2X9BmAGBUuBihiLla4C5bO8ZwQ2RGrfuPoFuSwQMA > NG2Rz1k9l1Y9d6xHsWHxw5wQHFVScZjWR5k9BQ1E5ClPC7W1fEdIhplQ3N9nICA1 > cP5qMqp8Ob5YyEEHDUxJ > =9oTM > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Dev mailing list > Dev at lists.parabola.nu > https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev > From emulatorman at riseup.net Fri Jan 30 13:06:59 2015 From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 11:06:59 -0200 Subject: [Dev] gajim 0.16 In-Reply-To: <54CB1138.30602@gnu.org> References: <54CAF357.8010100@gnu.org> <87pp9x6j5d.fsf@unicorn.home> <54CB017D.4070004@gnu.org> <87iofo7uk2.fsf@unicorn.home> <54CB1138.30602@gnu.org> Message-ID: <54CB81F3.3070200@riseup.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 01/30/2015 03:06 AM, hellekin wrote: > Duh... I had a compiled version in /usr/local... A splendid > illustration of why one should not multitask: you forget about > what you're doing. > > So, as I discovered that Gajim 0.16 did not let me in any > conference room, I removed the package and try to compile it in > order to figure out why that happened. And with the compiled > version, came the requirement for PyOpenSSL, and the conflict with > Python 3.4. > > So in any case, gajim 0.16 is problematic because MUC does not work > and gajim 0.15 or gajim source are not available for compilation. > > == hk > If you want i could build 0.15 version of gajim to [pcr] and rename it as gajim-lts -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUy4HsAAoJEOaXR1L5cERW6Z0P/AvyTTxNpYs6/7c2lSZioQzL 5gGgfbul4AIxdqJsrTUpN5wrY9yvS1dW947B9Qq7AEiIyOMc3cN4cwxv7wMKBIuR cTFKXyJzRI4NNzXRSwpe6kZxSw+9Vkg1FHKIOIBNibKjHXYFNPnpMSo8jkehNENL AUwj1wtFlnPtcpyx0lfdare9yS6Vo0cpSM2Ru428p8uGyOA2StQMxu3r8b13qeLr onIh7ueGzaAiQCDWKfB5wGWyBmjDtuV0AoP4UJ6vtGUPTuTRHkVpGnZFZPCY9Tsl dowgmvYsMYUqmyhpuKcsnIia1ShMlKJoAddkjE97WhIV2lh5n93q4A2ZS7SSHeOI qyjaJ4yyopDVQNXkqCrzg/4OXoBL2aELIsKCqLTmzMbsCX6hUdyEJ4zKEHMRXIlb i2xWYz0ogMQuwlgKyqR7dXO8y1gMYfUpLSc2WlVJAz9gcgvFu8Wp+NPUySj8Gvdl BdfICB9ogQn/tkD5E09yDy9BrV+JK16P5Z5a9bAXTQ46pnGGMPWe9Mu8v+3/13Xm IAJ1Yvt0Fsk9/hvFBDEa8mz9NUL1v7SlYmGCMNDxTIXA4VkcHQZ7mF76ZDPc/FNh Mqeez9OvtN6rPMx7ZBqTauBL2JDHZqVKA6mEKoHeKxwLL/3O43qtIzZoLx7yQbwZ i137TE5XAT/j/pMVHJXE =lM03 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From emulatorman at riseup.net Fri Jan 30 13:09:30 2015 From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 11:09:30 -0200 Subject: [Dev] gajim 0.16 In-Reply-To: <54CB81F3.3070200@riseup.net> References: <54CAF357.8010100@gnu.org> <87pp9x6j5d.fsf@unicorn.home> <54CB017D.4070004@gnu.org> <87iofo7uk2.fsf@unicorn.home> <54CB1138.30602@gnu.org> <54CB81F3.3070200@riseup.net> Message-ID: <54CB828A.500@riseup.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 01/30/2015 11:06 AM, Andr? Silva wrote: > On 01/30/2015 03:06 AM, hellekin wrote: >> Duh... I had a compiled version in /usr/local... A splendid >> illustration of why one should not multitask: you forget about >> what you're doing. > >> So, as I discovered that Gajim 0.16 did not let me in any >> conference room, I removed the package and try to compile it in >> order to figure out why that happened. And with the compiled >> version, came the requirement for PyOpenSSL, and the conflict >> with Python 3.4. > >> So in any case, gajim 0.16 is problematic because MUC does not >> work and gajim 0.15 or gajim source are not available for >> compilation. > >> == hk > > > If you want i could build 0.15 version of gajim to [pcr] and rename > it as gajim-lts > Also i have a question about it, is there a stable version of gajim? Maybe we could build a new one based on it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUy4KKAAoJEOaXR1L5cERWHT4QALC7sp0zSUu5GnSNt+UbYIq9 w+sowLsoDJXz4VjI0VvYmj5f1kLmgdHhP3DKenRgHIJINcyFkkWno5odlTxPU4ZC 2fCNYJHCZyiMk1T5DWZKgivo6w+r68iZC+n6LMBD7EfiURuy93U9CUW25/MiuNL6 O6cvuJJXr75DHM49uBGmAyEsZl8SoWsNNejD3thaGpoCE+R8ZT2hIovt0AJPXbG/ M2MAajZcYeGG8DwhvYF4miNCthsy7p0ayaT7oGvyEEJF6QTn6uFm5fTOEDX+0P/J AM2hD4nvxgAL4/GHMtEgOG0JmVFCsh1QFoF9kyBP5rytfMt8FUGOkQiNf6pFa1Pp js4kHbCxK7FglVPcRlga/CqDN38r5qdJRLKXIUrQUIUusuP5z9dHwKnBGcaMK0Ez GXMafkn3I9USM5drGVshLyfZ4Oztk3fOUKceUeSpUt2TyzZdj4K0jAwR48Ld9acP N1v5IEspXFCZbs2ob40Tiq01zZ0Havc0VVVYLqyP1Y0WUYTQxEUqJzey/pOl4Tpt cx5h3uyB5FkTEMPrWMWDuzz05HlIoGSaaCfoErerNNwL9tmG51igJ4B9HGHuy9BK PUcyAPE99NiIyJCMvjxNr75v8eEvR7ISQlpYaBiZAMvu9eMuN0jYMQriJ54u38QE VgLAKl+QUC2Ukz0aVjf4 =LS8w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hellekin at gnu.org Fri Jan 30 15:19:08 2015 From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 12:19:08 -0300 Subject: [Dev] gajim 0.16 In-Reply-To: <54CB828A.500@riseup.net> References: <54CAF357.8010100@gnu.org> <87pp9x6j5d.fsf@unicorn.home> <54CB017D.4070004@gnu.org> <87iofo7uk2.fsf@unicorn.home> <54CB1138.30602@gnu.org> <54CB81F3.3070200@riseup.net> <54CB828A.500@riseup.net> Message-ID: <54CBA0EC.6010103@gnu.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 01/30/2015 10:09 AM, Andr? Silva wrote: > >> If you want i could build 0.15 version of gajim to [pcr] and rename >> it as gajim-lts > *** That would require reviewing their code and ensuring there's no security issue in 0.15. > Also i have a question about it, is there a stable version of gajim? > Maybe we could build a new one based on it. > *** 0.16 is the "stable" one. Not sure they realized the regression yet. But I'm more concerned about the conflict in the Python packages from 2.7 and 3.4. Why is there a conflict between a file from python 2.7 and one from python3.4? == hk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJUy6DiXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFQ0IyNkIyRTNDNzEyMTc2OUEzNEM4ODU0 ODA2QzM2M0ZDMTg5ODNEAAoJEEgGw2P8GJg9crgP/3WSR4K3ZiZMgp9y32PPgC9y qVAgUOND3PryEq1nzHPllxlZUyaJUNjd/Kh1DxNOqDeoekpdfCrMgsLMWR8OmNk/ CTR7W7oqf1qqxGui/Ls3JhHmGb67ZnV+0iJkcBFhs1TFIwOm2Cv8oUJtYz+wCDWW JEeR91Uz1RGcAsSDeS/um3bitceArDeDiXCaplF8lrylKPMGfOX+kZVzJIOqKW02 htMah2vXnwMyeQFbqdJhM5n3V9OJLX/1Uy+0sSrLhut8Kjh3OXPYTl2eEV5HUHhY tsavMJoq2WdmQUDgCuwDTQanoHh6ffV3LA7dktHZUXlLFLKrUfGdmnimBEzUbUVH QTXV29DMkqC76Iosapc8ULE6UQFNt4IRp+58T+tT6pmAufXf/EaaxVInzTGZ1+mr 6C6qTQ8PkJh4G+Oq3U4cRTmGP1GoNr+7uyHYFLd7zgCTvpkpGbRGizPBhO9T4PMH CUr91HzChVKubclYzFtk7cB8X1KR4vfIXqf7Po+nyG0bGbNgIn/V+A9eF+iQgFn4 xjTV//D6kcDp+HjB84SuWlBQ9juSns8x6BfiQuqoHeC3uZ0eEvtIz+CwyJnzmC/g eAYZRX21P5BjK34oGrsoRMOEG+V36rdDw5tUSh/b7qG/rSIRsf+jtr3vYw/i8t+A oNRWJ66HedERQGiGyn1q =OCQb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----