[Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola

ingegnue ingegnue at riseup.net
Mon Dec 8 03:47:38 GMT 2014

The UN or whoever is not going to listen... :P

Considering the practical implications. The question is not of complaining to the UN, but of how to work around those obstacles. Even if there were no taxes or sanctions, we would still have to deal with the price of shipping, and carbon emissions, if you care about that sort of thing. And money would therefore still be involved. 

So technically to remain consistent in your position, you would have to have the project be one where only labor, and not resources, are donated. 

Development and maintenance involves money:
• That about the equipment project contributors use? The project requires equipment and there is not exactly a clear division between labor and equipment, and said equipment is tainted by evil money. 
• Also, the Internet? How many people are gonna serve Parabola ISOs or the website over a wireless connection in a free Internet café? No one, of course.
• To register the domain name, you usually need to pay money.
• Everything that is keeping the project online is coming out of someone's pocket, likely several people's. Is there something bad about distributing the cost among users?

What are you opposing, exactly, if money is involved in every step? 

On December 7, 2014 3:01:04 AM EST, aurelien at hackers.camp wrote:
>ingegnue <ingegnue at riseup.net> writes:
>> Well, I sympathize, but to be against capitalism, you don't have to
>be against money. 
>> Money predates capitalism. Before money there were gifts and debts,
>> and barter was only ever used with strangers or would-be
>> enemies. (Source: anthropologist David Graeber.) The 1% exist not
>> because of money, but because of a series of steps that occured to
>> us where we are today in capitalism:
>> Step 1: laying claim to land and resources (capital) with violence,
>and then charging people to live on that land and use those resources 
>> Step 2: then forcing them to work on that land and have the surplus
>of their labor being taken from them in order to survive. 
>> Step 3: ever more intricate mutations of the above.
>> Roughly, some people debate that money needs to be gotten rid of,
>> while others say that the end of ruling classes owning the resources
>> is sufficient. So you (Aurelien) would fall into the first
>> category. However since Parabola already supports free software
>> in economics means everyone can access the means of production, in
>> this case software) I will safely assume that Parabola will not
>> (require) charge for its use, so that leaves two approaches:
>> 1) A gift economy that uses no currency
>> 2) A gift economy that uses currency 
>> When put into practice, if method #1 is chosen, will the
>> gifts/donations be of labor (e.g. code) and materials (e.g. servers,
>> mirrors)? This is a worldwide project: What happens if someone wants
>> to support the project materially despite not having time, and they
>> cannot for instance donate equipment because of the prohibitive cost
>> of transporting it, or because of taxes or sanctions in either
>> country?
>> Aurelien, what do you think?
>That the project can accept material, if now the country where the
>material is send fall under tax or sanctions in any country, the
>information have to be shared throw social network to UNESCO and UN
>because knowledge is a right and that country is going against
>since this project is completly free as in freedom and price, the
>project have this power by the way because everything prove that all is
>do for sharing knowledge.
>Money is an ~4000 years old, from its born, Humanity loose more than it
>won in its own evolution.
>It is time to make our best to evolve to type1, one of the step is
>a bit more far than money.
>The WWW2 bring us very nice tools with the UDHR, get time to read it,
>you have already the right to do most of things you claim. So just
>for it with the right n° of the law.
>Privacy, knowledge, freedom are already part of statement of the UDHR,
>dignity is just the 6th words of the preambule.
>> Regards,
>> IngeGNUe
>> On December 6, 2014 8:18:30 AM EST, "Jorge López"
><jorginho at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>On 05/12/14 20:10, coadde wrote:
>>>> André Silva wrote:
>>>> > On 12/05/2014 04:32 PM, Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
>>>> >>> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't come
>>>> >>> from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
>>>> >>> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to
>>>> >>> develop features that are commercially useful to them.
>>>> >> This highly reminds me of [0].
>>>> >> [0]
>>>> >> http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html
>>>> >>> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay
>>>> >>> that way, no need for bureaucratic management.
>>>> >> +1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.
>>>> >> (While scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)
>>>> >>> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a
>>>> >>> non-profit organization?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> * will be have a bank account?
>>>> >> Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.
>>>> >>> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so,
>>>> >>> how will be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if
>>>> >>> the return in development is fair?
>>>> >> There is at least one person who says they would donate only if
>>>> >> there was a Parabola Project that shared the money between
>>>> >> developers in a fair way.
>>>> >>> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ? my third issue with donations...
>>>> >> +1
>>>> > +1 how mtjm analysed everything, perfect!
>>>> +1
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