From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Mon Dec  1 17:12:16 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 14:12:16 -0300
Subject: [Dev] [Allan McRae] [arch-dev-public] pacman root key issue with
	gnupg-2.1
Message-ID: <87y4qrmgzz.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>


-- 
.o?)


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From: Allan McRae <allan at archlinux.org>
Subject: [arch-dev-public] pacman root key issue with gnupg-2.1
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 12:14:34 +1000
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Wed Dec  3 12:47:46 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 13:47:46 +0100
Subject: [Dev] OpenSSL Vs LibreSSL
Message-ID: <878uiooq6l.fsf@unicorn.home>


Hi,

The core of Parabola use OpenSSL as Arch do.

Maybe we should not stand from them and switch to that solution
http://www.libressl.org/ that sounds more accurate.

Regards

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
Run Free - Run GNU.org
http://www.hackers.camp
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Wed Dec  3 18:34:08 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:34:08 +0100
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
Message-ID: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>


Hi,

First thanks to all of you, because you have learn me many, many things.

For personnal reason I decide to quit the FSF and the Parabola project.

Thanks once again to all of you.

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp
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From hellekin at gnu.org  Wed Dec  3 19:58:31 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 16:58:31 -0300
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <547F6B67.4000401@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/03/2014 03:34 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> First thanks to all of you, because you have learn me many, many things.
> 
> For personnal reason I decide to quit the FSF and the Parabola project.
> 
> Thanks once again to all of you.
> 
*** Oh Aur?lien, that's such a sad news.  I wish you well!  If you need
to talk, you know where to contact me.

Regards,

==
hk

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From tct at ceata.org  Wed Dec  3 20:07:43 2014
From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:43 +0200
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org>

On 03.12.2014 20:34, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> For personnal reason I decide to quit the FSF and the Parabola project.

What about Free Software Corsica and the free software movement?

-- 
Tiberiu C. Turbureanu
Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata
http://turbureanu.ro/contact

Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor?
?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri

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From elcorreo at deshackra.com  Thu Dec  4 03:59:54 2014
From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:59:54 -0600
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87bnnkvzbx.fsf@deshackra.com>


Aur?lien DESBRI?RES writes:

> Hi,
>
> First thanks to all of you, because you have learn me many, many things.
>
> For personnal reason I decide to quit the FSF and the Parabola project.
>
> Thanks once again to all of you.

Oh boy :O!...

-- 
Pax et bonum.
Jorge Araya Navarro.
ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
https://es.gravatar.com/shackra


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Thu Dec  4 06:05:00 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 07:05:00 +0100
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org> (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu's message of
 "Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:43 +0200")
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home> <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org>
Message-ID: <87ppc0kl0z.fsf@unicorn.home>

"Tiberiu C. Turbureanu" <tct at ceata.org> writes:

> On 03.12.2014 20:34, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> For personnal reason I decide to quit the FSF and the Parabola project.
>
> What about Free Software Corsica and the free software movement?
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

After a night of thinking of your question ...

Decisions should be taken in the morning rather than late in the night.

But the need to give up is a fact, not a choice, and it is better to
stop things than being a shadow.

Keys of the FSC will be transmit to Corsican people that act in the FS
movement.

Free Software Movement, is like an engine, it run as well as you spread
the word. I will continue to spread the word, but differently.

Once again, it was a great adventure, and thanks to the FSF and all the
people I have meet throught differents FS projects.

I have to change my all way of life.


Have Fun & Be Free!


--
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From jorginho at riseup.net  Thu Dec  4 07:13:41 2014
From: jorginho at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Jorge_L=F3pez?=)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:13:41 +0100
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <548009A5.1020605@riseup.net>

On 03/12/14 19:34, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> Hi,
>
> First thanks to all of you, because you have learn me many, many things.
>
> For personnal reason I decide to quit the FSF and the Parabola project.
>
> Thanks once again to all of you.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
Thanks for your work.You have open doors in our community and luck in
your future projects :)
-- 
Un sa?do,
Jorge L?pez
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From tct at ceata.org  Thu Dec  4 10:09:46 2014
From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 12:09:46 +0200
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <87ppc0kl0z.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home> <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org>
 <87ppc0kl0z.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <548032EA.2080608@ceata.org>

On 04.12.2014 08:05, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> But the need to give up is a fact, not a choice, and it is better to
> stop things than being a shadow.

I disagree, minimizing your role is better than quit.

> Keys of the FSC will be transmit to Corsican people that act in the FS
> movement.

Who are they? Do they have public profiles? Who should I talk with for a
future collaboration with Romanian Funda?ia Ceata or Tehnoetic?

> Free Software Movement, is like an engine, it run as well as you spread
> the word. I will continue to spread the word, but differently.

By "differently" you mean from within the open source camp?

-- 
Tiberiu C. Turbureanu
Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata
http://turbureanu.ro/contact

Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor?
?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Thu Dec  4 10:54:49 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 11:54:49 +0100
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <548032EA.2080608@ceata.org> (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu's message of
 "Thu, 04 Dec 2014 12:09:46 +0200")
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home> <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org>
 <87ppc0kl0z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548032EA.2080608@ceata.org>
Message-ID: <87sigv8z2e.fsf@unicorn.home>

"Tiberiu C. Turbureanu" <tct at ceata.org> writes:

> On 04.12.2014 08:05, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> But the need to give up is a fact, not a choice, and it is better to
>> stop things than being a shadow.
>
> I disagree, minimizing your role is better than quit.

Minimizing my role to nothing is quiet same.

>> Keys of the FSC will be transmit to Corsican people that act in the FS
>> movement.
>
> Who are they? Do they have public profiles? Who should I talk with for a
> future collaboration with Romanian Funda?ia Ceata or Tehnoetic?

At this time there is nobody. The only guy I know with a level in
computing and most important a free way of think is not in/from
Corsica. So that should have no sens to give him the keys.

>> Free Software Movement, is like an engine, it run as well as you spread
>> the word. I will continue to spread the word, but differently.
>
> By "differently" you mean from within the open source camp?

No, I stop computing after 20 years, just use computer for mail
employement. (and less if I can)

It is a difficult and hard decision for me to take, and already feel
empty in my life, but it is a thing I have to do.

I have not change my mind and continue to think that a Society and
People need and have the right to have full access to all sources codes
without restrictions. 

I continue to think that all sources code like a Mathematical formula or
an Artistic work, should just be sign by the author and offered to
Humanity. 

Spread the word differently by, when I meet someone if he talk (and only
if he talk) to me about computer, I will explain him that a free way
exist no - no + 

I will now try to care as much as I can of my childrens and wife.

<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres


From hellekin at gnu.org  Thu Dec  4 11:06:13 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:06:13 -0300
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <87sigv8z2e.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home> <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org>
 <87ppc0kl0z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548032EA.2080608@ceata.org>
 <87sigv8z2e.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <54804025.9000609@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/04/2014 07:54 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> No, I stop computing after 20 years, just use computer for mail
> employement. (and less if I can)
> 
> It is a difficult and hard decision for me to take, and already feel
> empty in my life, but it is a thing I have to do.
>
> [...]
> 
> I will now try to care as much as I can of my childrens and wife.
>
*** That is understandable and respectable.  Best of luck in your new
life, Aur?lien.  Thank you for your dedication to software freedom, and
send love to your family.

==
hk
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From nobody at repo.parabola.nu  Thu Dec  4 15:34:36 2014
From: nobody at repo.parabola.nu (Parabola Website Notification)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 15:34:36 -0000
Subject: [Dev] Orphan Libre package [iceweasel] marked out-of-date
Message-ID: <20141204153436.848.25329@parabola.nu>

jdoe at mailinator.com wants to notify you that the following packages may be out-of-date:


* iceweasel 1:33.1.deb1-3 [libre] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/i686/iceweasel/
* iceweasel 1:33.1.deb1-3 [libre] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/x86_64/iceweasel/


The user provided the following additional text:

Version 34 has been released.

https://packages.debian.org/experimental/iceweasel



From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Thu Dec  4 17:01:18 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:01:18 -0300
Subject: [Dev] [hellekin] [GNU-linux-libre] Distro Screenshots
Message-ID: <87ppbze4dd.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>


-- 
:>


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From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Fri Dec  5 00:53:34 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 19:53:34 -0500
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87tx1ayl0x.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>

I'm truly sorry to see you go.

I wish you the best in searching for fulfillment and caring for your
family.

-- 
Happy hacking,
~ Luke Shumaker


From elcorreo at deshackra.com  Fri Dec  5 07:23:02 2014
From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 01:23:02 -0600
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <87sigv8z2e.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home> <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org>
 <87ppc0kl0z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548032EA.2080608@ceata.org>
 <87sigv8z2e.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <874mtawo8e.fsf@deshackra.com>


Aur?lien DESBRI?RES writes:

> [...] and already feel
> empty in my life, but it is a thing I have to do.
> [???]
> I will now try to care as much as I can of my childrens and wife.

Praying for you, Aur?lien.

-- 
Pax et bonum.
Jorge Araya Navarro.
ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
https://es.gravatar.com/shackra


From elcorreo at deshackra.com  Fri Dec  5 07:30:33 2014
From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 01:30:33 -0600
Subject: [Dev] Orphan Libre package [iceweasel] marked out-of-date
In-Reply-To: <20141204153436.848.25329@parabola.nu>
References: <20141204153436.848.25329@parabola.nu>
Message-ID: <87388uwnyq.fsf@deshackra.com>


Parabola Website Notification writes:

> jdoe at mailinator.com wants to notify you that the following packages may be out-of-date:
>
>
> * iceweasel 1:33.1.deb1-3 [libre] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/i686/iceweasel/
> * iceweasel 1:33.1.deb1-3 [libre] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/x86_64/iceweasel/
>
>
> The user provided the following additional text:
>
> Version 34 has been released.
>
> https://packages.debian.org/experimental/iceweasel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev

This reminds me that tomorrow, God willing, I'll buy a new laptop from Gluglu (a T60, I choose that machine because
they didn't have the T1000, ba dum tsk!) so I should be able to take back duties as packager!

-- 
Pax et bonum.
Jorge Araya Navarro.
ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
https://es.gravatar.com/shackra


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec  5 08:11:13 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:11:13 +0100
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <874mtawo8e.fsf@deshackra.com> (Jorge Araya Navarro's message of
 "Fri, 05 Dec 2014 01:23:02 -0600")
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home> <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org>
 <87ppc0kl0z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548032EA.2080608@ceata.org>
 <87sigv8z2e.fsf@unicorn.home> <874mtawo8e.fsf@deshackra.com>
Message-ID: <874mtacy8u.fsf@hackers.camp>

Jorge Araya Navarro <elcorreo at deshackra.com> writes:

> Aur?lien DESBRI?RES writes:
>
>> [...] and already feel
>> empty in my life, but it is a thing I have to do.
>> [???]
>> I will now try to care as much as I can of my childrens and wife.
>
> Praying for you, Aur?lien.
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Thanks to all of you ...

Have Fun & Be Free

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From icarious at hacari.org  Fri Dec  5 13:14:56 2014
From: icarious at hacari.org (Icarious)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:44:56 +0530
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
Message-ID: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>

I had a brief chat with Emulatorman yesterday and we came to certain conclusions. It has come to our attention that there is a certain need to organise the Parabola project and open possibilities to accept donations and funds for a better future for the project. As per https://www.parabola.nu/donate/ "At the moment, Parabola isn't accepting any money donations. And that's because we have nothing to do with them. We really don't, at the moment". However, there are developers who think otherwise and wish to get paid for the amount of work they do for Parabola by investing their time however we don't have a Donation policy yet. But before framing up a donation/ fund policy we need to organise ourselves to deal with such matters. As Parabola is a volunteer and community based project and does not wish to have any Project leader, here are my proposals.

1) We form a committee which consists of every recognised Parabola Developer. This committee will have two main functions, one internal and one external. In the external function, the committee represents the Parabola Project to others. This involves giving talks and presentations about Parabola, as well as building good relationships with other Free Software organisations, FSDG adhering Projects and upstream (Uploading Parabola Packages to AUR, reporting bugs to arch etc).

Internally, the committee manages the project and defines its vision. There should be regular (monthly) talks within the committee, to see how they can assist their work. A main task of the committee therefore involves coordination and communication.

2) After a committee is formed it is vital that we discuss on issues like Donations and funding policy which will get active developers their share of payment, and spend the rests for stable infrastructure (buying VPS / Domain Names/ etc) that will reduce the frequent downtime. Vote based decision has been chaotic for other projects and hence a consensus decision-making can be better. 

I have also seen issues like unstable source code management which needs fixing. Every major distribution has its own source code management system and Arch has "ABS" which is broken in Parabola. Packages from abslibre mostly don't get merged and the user has to rely on using GIT. GIT works in most cases however "using git for abslibre" and "using abs for packages from Arch" seems like a dirty hack to me rather than a long term solution. We need an unified solution to this.

3) The issues must not stay as a mere discussion / suggestion but also be implemented in a timely manner. 

I hope this will be given a serious thought and acted upon mutually. 

-- 
Icarious
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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Fri Dec  5 14:32:05 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 11:32:05 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
Message-ID: <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Icarious <icarious at hacari.org> writes:

> I had a brief chat with Emulatorman yesterday and we came to certain
> conclusions. It has come to our attention that there is a certain need
> to organise the Parabola project and open possibilities to accept
> donations and funds for a better future for the project.

i think i've been in emulatorman, lukeshu and other's place for the
first three years of the project.  i was spending time fixing servers,
replying email, pings at irc, building mips64el... then was that the
"ask anyone but fauno" policy started to work and i could delegate stuff
to others.  now you barely see me :)

we have to learn to delegate tasks in a working manner ("fooperson: hey
can you do this for me?" instead of "i wish someone would do this for
me..." while everyone's asleep) and loose a bit of control ("if don't do
it nobody will").  being stressed for others is no fun!

> As per https://www.parabola.nu/donate/ "At the moment, Parabola isn't
> accepting any money donations. And that's because we have nothing to
> do with them. We really don't, at the moment". However, there are
> developers who think otherwise and wish to get paid for the amount of
> work they do for Parabola by investing their time however we don't
> have a Donation policy yet.

i have contradictory feelings about accepting donations.  i think it's
good that people gets paid for their time on the project, that otherwise
would have to look elsewhere on jobs that aren't community-oriented,
fulfilling, etc.

but i also think we should be aware that money introduces complexities
and room for competition (how are we going to split rewards, "why does
s/he get paid more than me?", etc.) and also can configure the future of
the distro, by way of simply putting more reward in some features rather
than others.  this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't
come from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to develop
features that are commercially useful to them.

so i think accepting money in any way (donation, bounty, etc.) is a big
step that should be taken carefully and always thinking, not about the
income, but in the actual community.

> But before framing up a donation/ fund policy we need to organise
> ourselves to deal with such matters. As Parabola is a volunteer and
> community based project and does not wish to have any Project leader,
> here are my proposals.
>

:) this should be key in this discussion

>
> 1) We form a committee which consists of every recognised Parabola
> Developer. This committee will have two main functions, one internal
> and one external. In the external function, the committee represents
> the Parabola Project to others. This involves giving talks and
> presentations about Parabola, as well as building good relationships
> with other Free Software organisations, FSDG adhering Projects and
> upstream (Uploading Parabola Packages to AUR, reporting bugs to arch
> etc).
>

a little history.  when we were first discussing how parabola would be
organized, we thought it was important that not only developers have
final say in decisions, thus leaving the community powerless, with voice
but no vote and allowing for dynamics that we weren't happy in other
projects (basically "you're not a developer.")

we discussed this at length.  including the community in decisions was a
given, but we didn't come to a conclusion about how much would it be
involved.  some say it should be a mixed commitee of parabola hackers
and community delegates, but with a majority of parabola hackers so "the
goals of the project would remain true over time and a malevolent
community wouldn't change that".  it was my position that automatic
majorities are the same as no community.

at the end the vote was splitted and the argument was never solved, and
we ended up with the adhocratic parabola that we all know and love :)

i say this as an example of how at first we feel a need to control
things when there's really no need to.

if someone is interested in the discussion, i think we have the old
archives somewhere, otherwise i can dig on my personal archive.  iirc
this was during january 2009.  i believe we decided to write the social
contract after that.

https://wiki.parabola.nu/Parabola/GNU_Linux_Social_Contract

>
> Internally, the committee manages the project and defines its
> vision. There should be regular (monthly) talks within the committee,
> to see how they can assist their work. A main task of the committee
> therefore involves coordination and communication.
>

i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay that way,
no need for bureaucratic management.

>
> 2) After a committee is formed it is vital that we discuss on issues
> like Donations and funding policy which will get active developers
> their share of payment, and spend the rests for stable infrastructure
> (buying VPS / Domain Names/ etc) that will reduce the frequent
> downtime.

why don't we discuss it now that there's already a commitee?

* accepting funding and donations would require to form a non-profit
  organization?

* if so where would it be located? we're all over the world

* will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]

* will be have a bank account?

* or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so, how will
  be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if the return in
  development is fair?

> Vote based decision has been chaotic for other projects and hence a
> consensus decision-making can be better.

:) consensus decision-making is another key on this discussion

>
>
> I have also seen issues like unstable source code management which
> needs fixing. Every major distribution has its own source code
> management system and Arch has "ABS" which is broken in
> Parabola. Packages from abslibre mostly don't get merged and the user
> has to rely on using GIT. GIT works in most cases however "using git
> for abslibre" and "using abs for packages from Arch" seems like a
> dirty hack to me rather than a long term solution. We need an unified
> solution to this.

my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)

? my third issue with donations...

>
> 3) The issues must not stay as a mere discussion / suggestion but also
> be implemented in a timely manner.
>
> I hope this will be given a serious thought and acted upon mutually. 



[0]: https://fair.coop is an interesting approach to a community-based
     economy, maybe we should look at that too.  see my second issue
     with donations.

-- 
P)
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec  5 14:46:34 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 15:46:34 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Nicol=C3=A1?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= Reynolds"'s message
 of "Fri, 05 Dec 2014 11:32:05 -0300")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>

Nicol?s Reynolds <fauno at endefensadelsl.org> writes:

> Icarious <icarious at hacari.org> writes:
>
>> I had a brief chat with Emulatorman yesterday and we came to certain
>> conclusions. It has come to our attention that there is a certain need
>> to organise the Parabola project and open possibilities to accept
>> donations and funds for a better future for the project.
>
> i think i've been in emulatorman, lukeshu and other's place for the
> first three years of the project.  i was spending time fixing servers,
> replying email, pings at irc, building mips64el... then was that the
> "ask anyone but fauno" policy started to work and i could delegate stuff
> to others.  now you barely see me :)
>
> we have to learn to delegate tasks in a working manner ("fooperson: hey
> can you do this for me?" instead of "i wish someone would do this for
> me..." while everyone's asleep) and loose a bit of control ("if don't do
> it nobody will").  being stressed for others is no fun!
>
>> As per https://www.parabola.nu/donate/ "At the moment, Parabola isn't
>> accepting any money donations. And that's because we have nothing to
>> do with them. We really don't, at the moment". However, there are
>> developers who think otherwise and wish to get paid for the amount of
>> work they do for Parabola by investing their time however we don't
>> have a Donation policy yet.
>
> i have contradictory feelings about accepting donations.  i think it's
> good that people gets paid for their time on the project, that otherwise
> would have to look elsewhere on jobs that aren't community-oriented,
> fulfilling, etc.
>
> but i also think we should be aware that money introduces complexities
> and room for competition (how are we going to split rewards, "why does
> s/he get paid more than me?", etc.) and also can configure the future of
> the distro, by way of simply putting more reward in some features rather
> than others.  this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't
> come from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to develop
> features that are commercially useful to them.
>
> so i think accepting money in any way (donation, bounty, etc.) is a big
> step that should be taken carefully and always thinking, not about the
> income, but in the actual community.
>
>> But before framing up a donation/ fund policy we need to organise
>> ourselves to deal with such matters. As Parabola is a volunteer and
>> community based project and does not wish to have any Project leader,
>> here are my proposals.
>>
>
> :) this should be key in this discussion
>
>>
>> 1) We form a committee which consists of every recognised Parabola
>> Developer. This committee will have two main functions, one internal
>> and one external. In the external function, the committee represents
>> the Parabola Project to others. This involves giving talks and
>> presentations about Parabola, as well as building good relationships
>> with other Free Software organisations, FSDG adhering Projects and
>> upstream (Uploading Parabola Packages to AUR, reporting bugs to arch
>> etc).
>>
>
> a little history.  when we were first discussing how parabola would be
> organized, we thought it was important that not only developers have
> final say in decisions, thus leaving the community powerless, with voice
> but no vote and allowing for dynamics that we weren't happy in other
> projects (basically "you're not a developer.")
>
> we discussed this at length.  including the community in decisions was a
> given, but we didn't come to a conclusion about how much would it be
> involved.  some say it should be a mixed commitee of parabola hackers
> and community delegates, but with a majority of parabola hackers so "the
> goals of the project would remain true over time and a malevolent
> community wouldn't change that".  it was my position that automatic
> majorities are the same as no community.
>
> at the end the vote was splitted and the argument was never solved, and
> we ended up with the adhocratic parabola that we all know and love :)
>
> i say this as an example of how at first we feel a need to control
> things when there's really no need to.
>
> if someone is interested in the discussion, i think we have the old
> archives somewhere, otherwise i can dig on my personal archive.  iirc
> this was during january 2009.  i believe we decided to write the social
> contract after that.
>
> https://wiki.parabola.nu/Parabola/GNU_Linux_Social_Contract
>
>>
>> Internally, the committee manages the project and defines its
>> vision. There should be regular (monthly) talks within the committee,
>> to see how they can assist their work. A main task of the committee
>> therefore involves coordination and communication.
>>
>
> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay that way,
> no need for bureaucratic management.
>
>>
>> 2) After a committee is formed it is vital that we discuss on issues
>> like Donations and funding policy which will get active developers
>> their share of payment, and spend the rests for stable infrastructure
>> (buying VPS / Domain Names/ etc) that will reduce the frequent
>> downtime.
>
> why don't we discuss it now that there's already a commitee?
>
> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a non-profit
>   organization?
>
> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
>
> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
>
> * will be have a bank account?
>
> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so, how will
>   be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if the return in
>   development is fair?
>
>> Vote based decision has been chaotic for other projects and hence a
>> consensus decision-making can be better.
>
> :) consensus decision-making is another key on this discussion
>
>>
>>
>> I have also seen issues like unstable source code management which
>> needs fixing. Every major distribution has its own source code
>> management system and Arch has "ABS" which is broken in
>> Parabola. Packages from abslibre mostly don't get merged and the user
>> has to rely on using GIT. GIT works in most cases however "using git
>> for abslibre" and "using abs for packages from Arch" seems like a
>> dirty hack to me rather than a long term solution. We need an unified
>> solution to this.
>
> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
>
> ? my third issue with donations...
>
>>
>> 3) The issues must not stay as a mere discussion / suggestion but also
>> be implemented in a timely manner.
>>
>> I hope this will be given a serious thought and acted upon mutually. 
>
>
>
> [0]: https://fair.coop is an interesting approach to a community-based
>      economy, maybe we should look at that too.  see my second issue
>      with donations.
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

>From memory ...

Historically we have decided to not accept money to works free as in
freedom, here is a bit of explanation.

By accepting money, you get the way to make things for money.

The day that money will not be anymore, what will be done?

Parabola have been be released and works for many years without money
and that is and have been be a model in the FS and more fare.

We do things because we love what we do.

We do things because People need a fully free solution to involve more
and goes more far.

Works for money have a cost, this cost is true freedom.

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From smv at ceata.org  Fri Dec  5 11:44:14 2014
From: smv at ceata.org (Sorin-Mihai =?ISO-8859-1?Q?V=E2rgolici?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:44:14 +0200
Subject: [Dev] I quit Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <874mtacy8u.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home> <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org>
 <87ppc0kl0z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548032EA.2080608@ceata.org>
 <87sigv8z2e.fsf@unicorn.home> <874mtawo8e.fsf@deshackra.com>
 <874mtacy8u.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <1417779854.4942.33.camel@triscel1>

?n data de Vi, 05-12-2014 la 09:11 +0100, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES a scris:
> Jorge Araya Navarro <elcorreo at deshackra.com> writes:
> 
> > Aur?lien DESBRI?RES writes:
> >
> >> [...] and already feel
> >> empty in my life, but it is a thing I have to do.
> >> [???]
> >> I will now try to care as much as I can of my childrens and wife.
> >
> > Praying for you, Aur?lien.

"A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."

After all these years since I've joined the free software movement,
since I've joined the Parabola project and soon after that the Ceata
community that was the ground upon which the Ceata Foundation was based,
all I can say is that our purpose to help others to remain free and/or
to re(dis)cover their freedom is not the only thing that matters in life
but we are not being helped to follow this purpose.

We all feel empty when we will not be allowed to do so, when others will
stay in our way, and yet, we keep fighting as much as we can. No one is
helping us and because we have to help our selves we temporarily forget
about our purpose, or leave it aside for a while. This is life, we can't
control it.

I joined Parabola at your advice and it's been a great experience, and
for that, I thank you, Aur?lien! Love and cherish your family, be free
and continue to fight for their freedom too. This is not the end!

-- 
Sorin-Mihai V?rgolici
http://vargolici.com/contact

You suport freedom of arts and technology?
Join as a supporting member! (https://ceata.org/%c3%aenscrieri.html)



From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec  5 16:19:44 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 17:19:44 +0100
Subject: [Dev] I stay in Parabola project and the FSF.
In-Reply-To: <1417779854.4942.33.camel@triscel1> ("Sorin-Mihai
 \=\?utf-8\?Q\?V\?\= \=\?utf-8\?Q\?\=C3\=A2rgolici\=22's\?\=
 message of "Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:44:14 +0200")
References: <87ppc0mvkv.fsf@unicorn.home> <547F6D8F.6040805@ceata.org>
 <87ppc0kl0z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548032EA.2080608@ceata.org>
 <87sigv8z2e.fsf@unicorn.home> <874mtawo8e.fsf@deshackra.com>
 <874mtacy8u.fsf@hackers.camp> <1417779854.4942.33.camel@triscel1>
Message-ID: <8761dqcbmn.fsf_-_@hackers.camp>

Sorin-Mihai V?rgolici <smv at ceata.org> writes:

> ?n data de Vi, 05-12-2014 la 09:11 +0100, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES a scris:
>> Jorge Araya Navarro <elcorreo at deshackra.com> writes:
>> 
>> > Aur?lien DESBRI?RES writes:
>> >
>> >> [...] and already feel
>> >> empty in my life, but it is a thing I have to do.
>> >> [???]
>> >> I will now try to care as much as I can of my childrens and wife.
>> >
>> > Praying for you, Aur?lien.
>
> "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."
>
> After all these years since I've joined the free software movement,
> since I've joined the Parabola project and soon after that the Ceata
> community that was the ground upon which the Ceata Foundation was based,
> all I can say is that our purpose to help others to remain free and/or
> to re(dis)cover their freedom is not the only thing that matters in life
> but we are not being helped to follow this purpose.
>
> We all feel empty when we will not be allowed to do so, when others will
> stay in our way, and yet, we keep fighting as much as we can. No one is
> helping us and because we have to help our selves we temporarily forget
> about our purpose, or leave it aside for a while. This is life, we can't
> control it.
>
> I joined Parabola at your advice and it's been a great experience, and
> for that, I thank you, Aur?lien! Love and cherish your family, be free
> and continue to fight for their freedom too. This is not the end!
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Translating this as well as I can to my wife ...

.

I can just works standing (and not seated (because I can't stay seated
more than some minute)) but well I can standing right to say that: Yes
we have to do what we are doing to offer a fully free solution to our
childrens.

Things I have read on OpenBSD and my own situation make me decide to go
away from all things to do all I can for my familly.

Fauno told me (and was right) that in OpenBSD there is something
poisonous.

But that and my own situation, decided me to go away, thinking, no I have
nothing to bring, I do not believe anymore.

Now, seeing that some people (I respects) want to introduce *money* in
Parabola, and you finish to make me decide that no, I can't leave alive
this project. 

No *The heresy of money* have not to be part of that project because
Parabola project is for part a standing right in front the *money
system*

*Money* is more *poisonous* than anything anywhere in the know bubble
Univers.

I have quit the project alive, I am now back, and next time I quit will
be the day I will go to the cemetry.

Emulatorman, Icarious.


Thanks smv



-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec  5 18:19:53 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:19:53 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 (icarious@hacari.org's message of "Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:44:56 +0530")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
Message-ID: <87h9xaufg6.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> as well as building good relationships
> with other Free Software organisations, FSDG adhering Projects and
> upstream (Uploading Parabola Packages to AUR, reporting bugs to arch
> etc).

+1

> and spend the rests for stable infrastructure
> (buying VPS / Domain Names/ etc) that will reduce the frequent
> downtime.

And the wildcard TLS certificate?

> I have also seen issues like unstable source code management which
> needs fixing. Every major distribution has its own source code
> management system and Arch has "ABS" which is broken in
> Parabola. Packages from abslibre mostly don't get merged and the user
> has to rely on using GIT. GIT works in most cases however "using git
> for abslibre" and "using abs for packages from Arch" seems like a
> dirty hack to me rather than a long term solution. We need an unified
> solution to this.

I think it's much more deeply broken: ABS is not synchronized with
binary packages, so we can get binaries at one sync and ABS hours/day
later.  I believe we should get from Arch only sources and build our own
binaries, so we have verified availability of sources and can do
important improvements like debug symbol packages that GNUtoo suggested.
(This needs much work and a build server.)

> 3) The issues must not stay as a mere discussion / suggestion but also
> be implemented in a timely manner.

+1
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec  5 18:32:04 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:32:04 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Nicol=C3=A1?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= Reynolds"'s message
 of "Fri, 05 Dec 2014 11:32:05 -0300")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't
> come from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to develop
> features that are commercially useful to them.

This highly reminds me of [0].

[0] http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html

> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay that way,
> no need for bureaucratic management.

+1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.  (While
scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)

> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a non-profit
>   organization?
>
> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
>
> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
>
> * will be have a bank account?

Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.

> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so, how will
>   be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if the return in
>   development is fair?

There is at least one person who says they would donate only if there
was a Parabola Project that shared the money between developers in a
fair way.

> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
>
> ? my third issue with donations...

+1
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec  5 18:45:37 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:45:37 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82o?=
 =?utf-8?Q?wski=22's?= message of "Fri,
 05 Dec 2014 19:32:04 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <871toe7x66.fsf@hackers.camp>

mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:

>> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't
>> come from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
>> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to develop
>> features that are commercially useful to them.
>
> This highly reminds me of [0].
>
> [0] http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html
>
>> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay that way,
>> no need for bureaucratic management.
>
> +1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.  (While
> scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)
>
>> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a non-profit
>>   organization?
>>
>> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
>>
>> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
>>
>> * will be have a bank account?
>
> Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.
>
>> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so, how will
>>   be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if the return in
>>   development is fair?
>
> There is at least one person who says they would donate only if there
> was a Parabola Project that shared the money between developers in a
> fair way.
>
>> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
>>
>> ? my third issue with donations...
>
> +1

<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Money is the seed of most of trouble.

What will prevent users in front ::

*pay me if you want me to fix it?*

-1

If people want to give, they could give material, mirror, server space
... time.

What happen suddenly that we *absolutly need* to change what have been
be established on start of the project?

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From emulatorman at riseup.net  Fri Dec  5 19:06:37 2014
From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 17:06:37 -0200
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <5482023D.90207@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 12/05/2014 04:32 PM, Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
>> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't come from
>> the community, who ideally would pay to develop features useful
>> for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to develop 
>> features that are commercially useful to them.
> 
> This highly reminds me of [0].
> 
> [0]
> http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html
> 
>> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay
>> that way, no need for bureaucratic management.
> 
> +1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.  (While 
> scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)
> 
>> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a
>> non-profit organization?
>> 
>> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
>> 
>> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
>> 
>> * will be have a bank account?
> 
> Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.
> 
>> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so, how
>> will be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if the
>> return in development is fair?
> 
> There is at least one person who says they would donate only if
> there was a Parabola Project that shared the money between
> developers in a fair way.
> 
>> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
>> 
>> ? my third issue with donations...
> 
> +1

+1 how mtjm analysed everything, perfect!
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From coadde at riseup.net  Fri Dec  5 19:10:30 2014
From: coadde at riseup.net (coadde)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:10:30 +0000
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <5482023D.90207@riseup.net>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <5482023D.90207@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <54820326.2010602@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512



Andr? Silva wrote:
> On 12/05/2014 04:32 PM, Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
>>> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't come
>>> from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
>>> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to
>>> develop features that are commercially useful to them.
> 
>> This highly reminds me of [0].
> 
>> [0] 
>> http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html
> 
>>> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay 
>>> that way, no need for bureaucratic management.
> 
>> +1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.
>> (While scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)
> 
>>> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a 
>>> non-profit organization?
>>> 
>>> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
>>> 
>>> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
>>> 
>>> * will be have a bank account?
> 
>> Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.
> 
>>> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so,
>>> how will be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if
>>> the return in development is fair?
> 
>> There is at least one person who says they would donate only if 
>> there was a Parabola Project that shared the money between 
>> developers in a fair way.
> 
>>> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
>>> 
>>> ? my third issue with donations...
> 
>> +1
> 
> +1 how mtjm analysed everything, perfect!

+1
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec  5 19:32:31 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 20:32:31 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <871toe7x66.fsf@hackers.camp> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:45:37 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <871toe7x66.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <8761dpvqnk.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> If people want to give, they could give material, mirror, server space
> ... time.

This is useful if there are people with enough time to do the needed
work.  People offer mirrors, no one offers the work needed to make more
mirrors useful or to keep the systems working and up to date when a
single mirror gets outdated.

> What happen suddenly that we *absolutly need* to change what have been
> be established on start of the project?

Some people are looking at more possible solutions to the well-known
existing problems.
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From lashdu at drtan.twilightparadox.com  Fri Dec  5 19:44:42 2014
From: lashdu at drtan.twilightparadox.com (lashdu)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 20:44:42 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <871toe7x66.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <871toe7x66.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <1417808682.5421.8.camel@drtan.twilightparadox.com>

Dnia 2014-12-05, pi? o godzinie 19:45 +0100, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES pisze:
> mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:
> 
> >> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't
> >> come from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
> >> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to develop
> >> features that are commercially useful to them.
> >
> > This highly reminds me of [0].
> >
> > [0] http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html
> >
> >> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay that way,
> >> no need for bureaucratic management.
> >
> > +1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.  (While
> > scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)
> >
> >> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a non-profit
> >>   organization?
> >>
> >> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
> >>
> >> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
> >>
> >> * will be have a bank account?
> >
> > Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.
> >
> >> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so, how will
> >>   be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if the return in
> >>   development is fair?
> >
> > There is at least one person who says they would donate only if there
> > was a Parabola Project that shared the money between developers in a
> > fair way.
> >
> >> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
> >>
> >> ? my third issue with donations...
> >
> > +1
> 
> <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>
> 
> Money is the seed of most of trouble.
> 
> What will prevent users in front ::
> 
> *pay me if you want me to fix it?*
> 
> -1
> 
> If people want to give, they could give material, mirror, server space
> ... time.
> 
> What happen suddenly that we *absolutly need* to change what have been
> be established on start of the project?
> 

What if we rised money only for infrastructure: servers, domain
registration, etc.?

I also believe that money can spoil people and damage well established
rules. Once there came to my mind that I could donate some money to
Parabola. It was in the situation when I couldn't help the project in
any other possible way. Maybe there is some wise way of handling money,
so it won't became the only one thing everybody cares.

And one more idea. The FSF has got special fundraiser for many projects;
you donate to specific project (GNUstep gets funding this way). Could we
apply? It would maybe resolve some legal issues we don't like to be
burden with.
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From hellekin at gnu.org  Fri Dec  5 20:35:41 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 17:35:41 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/05/2014 11:46 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> Works for money have a cost, this cost is true freedom.
> 
*** Work without money has a cost, this cost is true freedom.

We live in a world where approval economy is not working so well.
People have to pay for their rent, their food, their taxes,
transportation, and all kinds of trade economy stuff that really makes a
huge hole in the realization of software freedom and a fair society.

The GNU project is starting a donations campaign with the objective of
gathering half-a-million dollars.  Do you know why?  Because money is
needed to do a lot of things in our society.

So yes, working *for* money is shit, but we're not talking about that
here.  Instead, the proposal is to enable core people to spend 100% of
their time on Parabola, which they're already doing, and which they've
been doing by personal election.  The alternative is that they have to
work on other things because that is not sustainable.

Sustainability of free software has always been a hard issue, and the
only successful methods found so far have been to abandon independence
and get funding from corporate or government sources.  Look at
successful free software projects and find one that does not accept
money from such sources.  Sometimes it does not even involve abandoning
anything.  The GNU project receives support from Google via the Summer
of Code, but still is able to criticize the corporation's vigilance.
There's no conflict of interest there: Google knows the value of free
software, it's built on it.  Getting money from Apple, Amazon, or
Microsoft would be another issue, but not because the money is "dirty":
such sources would necessarily require visibility, and their ethics are
opposite to the GNU project's.  Consider the Tor project: they get
military funding.  Many criticize Tor for being funding by the same
people who create havoc around the world.  I say: the money that goes
into Tor does not go into bombs.

Accepting money is not bad per se.  Failing to allocate money fairly and
transparently, and treating money as the objective rather than the mean,
are.  Leaving a solidarity perspective behind and entering a trading
mindset is.

For example, considering the issue of fairness: "Why A is being paid
more than me?" won't happen if you consider a complex of factors.  If I
have a paid job, my need for (extra) money is much less than if I don't
have a job.  On the other hand, my available time is much reduced as
well.  Living in Europe in more costly than living in South America, but
relative income in South America is much lower, etc.  There are many
factors that can be considered.

Note that one of the important factors about fairness and free software
relates to the role: it is intuitively normal to consider the highest
valued contributor to be a developer.  Then, an UX designer, a marketer,
or an user are not considered valuable, and that leads to a technical
elite of so-called meritocracy that leaves projects without blood
because they fail to see free software as more than open source: who
cares how brilliant is your code if it doesn't help build community and
solidarity across society?

I understand a lot all those issues, for having spent countless years
believing in the evil of money with regard to software freedom and the
resistance.  But I was wrong.  Software freedom needs money, not loads
of it, but enough to not have to think about it.

Maybe there's a way to invent here.  For example, gather $200,000 and
buy a big house in a cheap country and move a group of people there to
take care of each other and build a fortress of freedom.  That's the way
Calafou was born.  And that's the price Rafael Bonifaz is willing to
sell his house in Ecuador, constrained by his work promoting software
freedom in the Ecuadorean Parliament to leave it behind.  Shall it fall
back into the trade economy, or remain with software freedom advocates?
 Solidarity networks can be created to boost projects up scale and out
of the trade economy.  $200K is a lot, and may be completely out of
proportion: it's simply an example of what could be done.  Lorea thrived
on less than $1000/person/year for three years, and died of not being
able to expand the message to its users, because of the artificial
division of labor between developers and users, and the inability of our
generations educated in the trade economy to understand the power of
cheap solidarity.  What we got out from Lorea is burned out people and
the conviction we can't make it on the long term without solid and
sustainable foundations.

==
hk

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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Fri Dec  5 22:10:59 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:10:59 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 12/05/2014 11:46 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> Works for money have a cost, this cost is true freedom.
>> 
> *** Work without money has a cost, this cost is true freedom.
>
> We live in a world where approval economy is not working so well.
> People have to pay for their rent, their food, their taxes,
> transportation, and all kinds of trade economy stuff that really makes a
> huge hole in the realization of software freedom and a fair society.
>
> The GNU project is starting a donations campaign with the objective of
> gathering half-a-million dollars.  Do you know why?  Because money is
> needed to do a lot of things in our society.

another model is to offer services based on parabola.  most of the
servers i maintain, for monetary benefit or not, are parabolas B)

-- 
http://librevpn.org.ar
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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Fri Dec  5 22:22:50 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:22:50 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <87ppbxbuth.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Nicol?s Reynolds <fauno at endefensadelsl.org> writes:
>> Vote based decision has been chaotic for other projects and hence a
>> consensus decision-making can be better.
>
> :) consensus decision-making is another key on this discussion

btw, some quick-reading material about consensus decision-making:

https://web.archive.org/web/20031223234650/http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus-nu.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20031224000452/http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20031224030643/http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/affinitygroups.html

in spanish: http://utopia.partidopirata.com.ar/democracia_directa.html

-- 
http://librevpn.org.ar
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From hellekin at gnu.org  Fri Dec  5 23:59:41 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 20:59:41 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/05/2014 07:10 PM, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote:
> 
> another model is to offer services based on parabola.  most of the
> servers i maintain, for monetary benefit or not, are parabolas B)
> 
*** Another COMPLEMENTARY model, and certainly not the only one, and
certainly not available to users.  That is a strawman argument that
simply confirms my argumentation.

In the case of the GNU project, that would mean hiring more people just
to take care of the paying services, because the current team of
staffers is already under water.  Yet, they provide gratis services,
such as Savannah, LibrePlanet, etc.

There is a huge and gratuitous misunderstanding in the free software
community about some ideal of purity that involves gratuity.  Gratuity,
especially in the domain of computing and Internet, usually is a
by-product of vast capital that uses it to destroy competition and force
it into submission or self-reliance.  Unfortunately, as the accent is
put on efficiency and quality, i.e. open-source, instead of solidarity,
any attempt at including payment or retribution in the free software
community is met with gratuitous hostility.

==
hk
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From ingegnue at riseup.net  Sat Dec  6 01:54:56 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 01:54:56 +0000
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>

I hope you don't mind me butting in. ;) Just reading this and I'm overjoyed because one thing I would really like to see in a distro is a very little, if any, hierarchy.

Parabola seems very horizontal, and that is a big reason why I like this distro. Since introducing money into the situation has got some people worrying, I thought I would give a suggestion based on a concept that already exists: co-ops! 

But then I saw someone already mentioned that, awesome. :) 

I empathize with the revulsion at money flowing into the project, but in capitalism money is a resource: everyone needs money to stay afloat. The only people who don't have to worry about needing money are the 1%, the CEOs, the bankers... In Parabola's case, income for the project could help it grow and stay alive. I think that the less time developers of Parabola have to worry about other work commitments, the more time they can spend spreading free software. 

To me, corruption occurs when unjustifiable hierarchy is introduced. Lost motivation and poor quality craft occurs when we replace intrinsic rewards (like fulfillment) with extrinsic (like being motivated by money, fear, your boss, etc). However, introducing money doesn't have to do either. People who work in self-managed co-ops often do it for the intrinsic rather than extrinsic rewards.

I think this article sums it up well: https://libcom.org/library/workers-self-management-faq

There are many examples of co-ops in the world, both large and small. Such groups have found a way to deal with money while keeping it democratic. Riseup.net, my mail provider, is one example of a "tech collective" (their phrase) that has done well and existed for 14 years now. They just finished their fundraising for the year. Valve might be a co-op (idk)... Mondrag?n is the biggest co-op in existence today. Yada yada... 
If you want to be motivated by a higher purpose (spreading software freedom!), you don't necessarily have to operate like a business: it can be nonprofit. Nonprofits can be hierarchical or not. Obviously I prefer to support the latter: not hierarchical. :P

I will be happy to donate whatever resources and labor I have to Parabola provided it retains a cooperative, not-for-profit structure (which it already seems to have), invests back into the project, and also that each developer gets paid according to some measure of fairness. (That is not to say that it has to be on legal paper or whatever, but that it is demonstrated through behavior.) I am still a student, still learning things, but I hope to also contribute as my skills improve. I could also write about it on my blog... 

I hope I was not too redundant with what others have already said (rest assured, I did read everything). I like the links on consensus. Anyway, good luck and best wishes!

IngeGNUe (formerly: la igualdad)

On December 5, 2014 6:59:41 PM EST, hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA512
>
>On 12/05/2014 07:10 PM, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote:
>> 
>> another model is to offer services based on parabola.  most of the
>> servers i maintain, for monetary benefit or not, are parabolas B)
>> 
>*** Another COMPLEMENTARY model, and certainly not the only one, and
>certainly not available to users.  That is a strawman argument that
>simply confirms my argumentation.
>
>In the case of the GNU project, that would mean hiring more people just
>to take care of the paying services, because the current team of
>staffers is already under water.  Yet, they provide gratis services,
>such as Savannah, LibrePlanet, etc.
>
>There is a huge and gratuitous misunderstanding in the free software
>community about some ideal of purity that involves gratuity.  Gratuity,
>especially in the domain of computing and Internet, usually is a
>by-product of vast capital that uses it to destroy competition and
>force
>it into submission or self-reliance.  Unfortunately, as the accent is
>put on efficiency and quality, i.e. open-source, instead of solidarity,
>any attempt at including payment or retribution in the free software
>community is met with gratuitous hostility.
>
>==
>hk
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>_______________________________________________
>Dev mailing list
>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev



From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Sat Dec  6 03:58:05 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 00:58:05 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <87vblpv38y.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 12/05/2014 07:10 PM, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote:
>> 
>> another model is to offer services based on parabola.  most of the
>> servers i maintain, for monetary benefit or not, are parabolas B)
>> 
> *** Another COMPLEMENTARY model, and certainly not the only one, and
> certainly not available to users.  That is a strawman argument that
> simply confirms my argumentation.

i wasn't disagreeing with you...

-- 
http://partidopirata.com.ar
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sat Dec  6 05:39:38 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 06:39:38 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 (ingegnue@riseup.net's message of "Sat, 06 Dec 2014 01:54:56 +0000")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp>

ingegnue <ingegnue at riseup.net> writes:

> I empathize with the revulsion at money flowing into the project, but
> in capitalism money is a resource: everyone needs money to stay
> afloat. The only people who don't have to worry about needing money
> are the 1%, the CEOs, the bankers... In Parabola's case, income for
> the project could help it grow and stay alive.

<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

This is exactly what the 1% want us to think, and this is exactly what
make them run.

By refusing money we refuse that system, we get out of the 99% and the
1%

We Prove them that another running solution is possible at top
technological level.

A Simple way to say, we do it, Yes you can do it too!

Money is not so old in the history of humanity and if the things don't
goes right before, the first day we have build temple of money, world
goes more and more in disorder.

Do what need to be done because you care about.



-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sat Dec  6 05:40:53 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 06:40:53 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <8761dpvqnk.fsf@mtjm.eu> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82o?=
 =?utf-8?Q?wski=22's?= message of "Fri,
 05 Dec 2014 20:32:31 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <871toe7x66.fsf@hackers.camp> <8761dpvqnk.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <87oarh72u2.fsf@hackers.camp>

mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:

>> If people want to give, they could give material, mirror, server space
>> ... time.
>
> This is useful if there are people with enough time to do the needed
> work.  People offer mirrors, no one offers the work needed to make more
> mirrors useful or to keep the systems working and up to date when a
> single mirror gets outdated.
>
>> What happen suddenly that we *absolutly need* to change what have been
>> be established on start of the project?
>
> Some people are looking at more possible solutions to the well-known
> existing problems.
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

mtjm, you are right on the fact of what happen with the mirror, but, do
we have act as we should have do in fron that trouble? *Maybe* (maybe
because i have not clearly understand the trouble) it should have been
be better to send a mail on gnu mailling list or savannah explaining the
trouble and which sort of help we need.

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From jorginho at riseup.net  Sat Dec  6 13:18:30 2014
From: jorginho at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Jorge_L=F3pez?=)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:18:30 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <54820326.2010602@riseup.net>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <5482023D.90207@riseup.net> <54820326.2010602@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <54830226.4060507@riseup.net>

On 05/12/14 20:10, coadde wrote:
>
>
> Andr? Silva wrote:
> > On 12/05/2014 04:32 PM, Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
> >>> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't come
> >>> from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
> >>> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to
> >>> develop features that are commercially useful to them.
>
> >> This highly reminds me of [0].
>
> >> [0]
> >> http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html
>
> >>> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay
> >>> that way, no need for bureaucratic management.
>
> >> +1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.
> >> (While scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)
>
> >>> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a
> >>> non-profit organization?
> >>>
> >>> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
> >>>
> >>> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
> >>>
> >>> * will be have a bank account?
>
> >> Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.
>
> >>> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so,
> >>> how will be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if
> >>> the return in development is fair?
>
> >> There is at least one person who says they would donate only if
> >> there was a Parabola Project that shared the money between
> >> developers in a fair way.
>
> >>> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
> >>>
> >>> ? my third issue with donations...
>
> >> +1
>
> > +1 how mtjm analysed everything, perfect!
>
> +1

+1
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev

-- 
Un sa?do,
Jorge L?pez

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From jorginho at riseup.net  Sat Dec  6 17:54:07 2014
From: jorginho at riseup.net (Jorge Lopez)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 18:54:07 +0100
Subject: [Dev] parabola for blind
In-Reply-To: <CAHWa5uc_bA0ce2b=8rE=uam+v3moP4fy_mf_huk1TcvmsBhwRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWa5udbsyN42MZmLMctBQqtuXiVJj=jP=WjtP2wvUqe0K9wkg@mail.gmail.com>	<54755EB0.2090103@riseup.net>	<54756F86.9060405@riseup.net>	<54770BB0.6020804@riseup.net>
 <CAHWa5uc_bA0ce2b=8rE=uam+v3moP4fy_mf_huk1TcvmsBhwRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <548342BF.3030205@riseup.net>

On 28/11/14 01:47, Ali Abdul Ghani wrote:
> Thank you for this work
> I think Just grab and install the talkingarch-git package from the
> AUR. It depends on archiso-git, so you need that
> as well. See /usr/share/doc/talkingarch/README for full instructions.
>
>
> 2014-11-27 3:32 ??????-08:00, Jorge L?pez <jorginho at riseup.net>:
>> On 26/11/14 07:13, Andr? Silva wrote:
>>> On 11/26/2014 03:01 AM, Andr? Silva wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/2014 01:48 AM, Ali Abdul Ghani wrote:
>>>>> hi I am blin
>>> the initiative to help people with disabilities to improve their
>>> quality of life
>>> d i use Screen reader for me, Without Screen reader
>>>>> My life becomes difficult It gives me the ability to control
>>>>> computer
>>>>> I installed http://talkingarch.tk/
>>>>> then I follow these instructions to be parabola
>>>>> https://wiki.parabola.nu/Migration
>>>>> I wish parabola do a TalkArch derivative install CD themselves
>>>> ok, i'll include it as task on labs to do it for our distro soon,
>>>> thanks for let us know about it.
>>> The task has been added on labs [0]
>>>
>>> [0]:https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/604
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Dev mailing list
>>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>> I think that it's goodthe initiative to help people with disabilities to
>> improve their quality of life.
>>
>> Un sa?do,
>> Jorge L?pez
>>
>>
>
I adapt the talkingarch to talkingparabola. You can test it and report
the bugs or things that can be improve:
https://repo.parabola.nu/iso/talkingparabola/parabola-2014.12.06-dual.iso


From emulatorman at riseup.net  Sat Dec  6 19:50:30 2014
From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFNpbHZh?=)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 17:50:30 -0200
Subject: [Dev] parabola for blind
In-Reply-To: <548342BF.3030205@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWa5udbsyN42MZmLMctBQqtuXiVJj=jP=WjtP2wvUqe0K9wkg@mail.gmail.com>	<54755EB0.2090103@riseup.net>	<54756F86.9060405@riseup.net>	<54770BB0.6020804@riseup.net>
 <CAHWa5uc_bA0ce2b=8rE=uam+v3moP4fy_mf_huk1TcvmsBhwRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <548342BF.3030205@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <54835E06.1010105@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 12/06/2014 03:54 PM, Jorge Lopez wrote:
> On 28/11/14 01:47, Ali Abdul Ghani wrote:
>> Thank you for this work I think Just grab and install the 
>> talkingarch-git package from the AUR. It depends on archiso-git,
>>  so you need that as well. See /usr/share/doc/talkingarch/README
>>  for full instructions.
>> 
>> 
>> 2014-11-27 3:32 ??????-08:00, Jorge L?pez <jorginho at riseup.net>:
>>> On 26/11/14 07:13, Andr? Silva wrote:
>>>> On 11/26/2014 03:01 AM, Andr? Silva wrote:
>>>>> On 11/12/2014 01:48 AM, Ali Abdul Ghani wrote:
>>>>>> hi I am blin
>>>> the initiative to help people with disabilities to improve 
>>>> their quality of life d i use Screen reader for me, Without 
>>>> Screen reader
>>>>>> My life becomes difficult It gives me the ability to 
>>>>>> control computer I installed http://talkingarch.tk/ then
>>>>>>  I follow these instructions to be parabola 
>>>>>> https://wiki.parabola.nu/Migration I wish parabola do a 
>>>>>> TalkArch derivative install CD themselves
>>>>> ok, i'll include it as task on labs to do it for our distro
>>>>> soon, thanks for let us know about it.
>>>> The task has been added on labs [0]
>>>> 
>>>> [0]:https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/604 
>>>> _______________________________________________ Dev mailing 
>>>> list Dev at lists.parabola.nu 
>>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>>> I think that it's goodthe initiative to help people with 
>>> disabilities to improve their quality of life.
>>> 
>>> Un sa?do, Jorge L?pez
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> I adapt the talkingarch to talkingparabola. You can test it and 
> report the bugs or things that can be improve: 
> https://repo.parabola.nu/iso/talkingparabola/parabola-2014.12.06-dual.iso
>
> 
I've put it to downloading section on our website [0]
Meanwhile, we should create the torrent and magnet files for it.

[0]:https://wiki.parabola.nu/Get_Parabola#TalkingParabola

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From ingegnue at riseup.net  Sat Dec  6 23:31:02 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 23:31:02 +0000
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <54830226.4060507@riseup.net>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <5482023D.90207@riseup.net> <54820326.2010602@riseup.net>
 <54830226.4060507@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <59EE8F01-D6AF-4032-AFC5-49ACECCE4170@riseup.net>

Well, I sympathize, but to be against capitalism, you don't have to be against money. 

Money predates capitalism. Before money there were gifts and debts, and barter was only ever used with strangers or would-be enemies. (Source: anthropologist David Graeber.) The 1% exist not because of money, but because of a series of steps that occured to get us where we are today in capitalism:

Step 1: laying claim to land and resources (capital) with violence, and then charging people to live on that land and use those resources 
Step 2: then forcing them to work on that land and have the surplus of their labor being taken from them in order to survive. 
Step 3: ever more intricate mutations of the above.

Roughly, some people debate that money needs to be gotten rid of, while others say that the end of ruling classes owning the resources is sufficient. So you (Aurelien) would fall into the first category. However since Parabola already supports free software (which in economics means everyone can access the means of production, in this case software) I will safely assume that Parabola will not (require) charge for its use, so that leaves two approaches:

1) A gift economy that uses no currency

2) A gift economy that uses currency 

When put into practice, if method #1 is chosen, will the gifts/donations be of labor (e.g. code) and materials (e.g. servers, mirrors)? This is a worldwide project: What happens if someone wants to support the project materially despite not having time, and they cannot for instance donate equipment because of the prohibitive cost of transporting it, or because of taxes or sanctions in either country?

Aurelien, what do you think?

Regards,
IngeGNUe

On December 6, 2014 8:18:30 AM EST, "Jorge L?pez" <jorginho at riseup.net> wrote:
>On 05/12/14 20:10, coadde wrote:
>>
>>
>> Andr? Silva wrote:
>> > On 12/05/2014 04:32 PM, Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
>> >>> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't come
>> >>> from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
>> >>> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to
>> >>> develop features that are commercially useful to them.
>>
>> >> This highly reminds me of [0].
>>
>> >> [0]
>> >> http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html
>>
>> >>> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay
>> >>> that way, no need for bureaucratic management.
>>
>> >> +1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.
>> >> (While scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)
>>
>> >>> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a
>> >>> non-profit organization?
>> >>>
>> >>> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
>> >>>
>> >>> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
>> >>>
>> >>> * will be have a bank account?
>>
>> >> Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.
>>
>> >>> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so,
>> >>> how will be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if
>> >>> the return in development is fair?
>>
>> >> There is at least one person who says they would donate only if
>> >> there was a Parabola Project that shared the money between
>> >> developers in a fair way.
>>
>> >>> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
>> >>>
>> >>> ? my third issue with donations...
>>
>> >> +1
>>
>> > +1 how mtjm analysed everything, perfect!
>>
>> +1
>
>+1
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dev mailing list
>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev



From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Sun Dec  7 06:09:40 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 01:09:40 -0500
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87h9xaufg6.fsf@mtjm.eu>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <87h9xaufg6.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <87bnngxa6z.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>

At Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:19:53 +0100,
Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
> > as well as building good relationships
> > with other Free Software organisations, FSDG adhering Projects and
> > upstream (Uploading Parabola Packages to AUR, reporting bugs to arch
> > etc).
> 
> +1
> 
> > and spend the rests for stable infrastructure
> > (buying VPS / Domain Names/ etc) that will reduce the frequent
> > downtime.
> 
> And the wildcard TLS certificate?

I'd be up for having a pool of funds that doesn't go to developers,
but can be used for project expenses.

> > I have also seen issues like unstable source code management which
> > needs fixing. Every major distribution has its own source code
> > management system and Arch has "ABS" which is broken in
> > Parabola. Packages from abslibre mostly don't get merged and the user
> > has to rely on using GIT. GIT works in most cases however "using git
> > for abslibre" and "using abs for packages from Arch" seems like a
> > dirty hack to me rather than a long term solution. We need an unified
> > solution to this.
> 
> I think it's much more deeply broken: ABS is not synchronized with
> binary packages, so we can get binaries at one sync and ABS hours/day
> later.

Preach it!  See-also: db-import, a (beta) solution that attempts to
address this.

> I believe we should get from Arch only sources and build our own
> binaries, so we have verified availability of sources and can do
> important improvements like debug symbol packages that GNUtoo
> suggested.  (This needs much work and a build server.)

I'm open to that.

> > 3) The issues must not stay as a mere discussion / suggestion but also
> > be implemented in a timely manner.
> 
> +1


From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Sun Dec  7 06:40:26 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 01:40:26 -0500
Subject: [Dev] [Monthy tech talk] December 2014
Message-ID: <87a930x8rp.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>


From Icarious' original email on the proposal to orginise Parabola:

> Internally, the committee manages the project and defines its
> vision. There should be regular (monthly) talks within the
> committee, to see how they can assist their work. A main task of the
> committee therefore involves coordination and communication.

I guess I'll kick that off.

Things that I'm currently working on:

 - `hackers.git`-based user management for the server

   And it's currently a mess.  Some of it is through the old
   hackers.git, some of it is through the new 'lukeshu/restructure'
   branch.

   https://projects.parabola.nu/hackers.git/
   https://projects.parabola.nu/~lukeshu/hackers-nslcd.git/

   I think I'm a couple of good days of work away from having
   hackers-nslcd (nshcd?) working.  It will probably be a while before
   I can sit down and make that happen though.

   I've also avoided talking about this one because it's currently
   such a mess. I guess I figure I'd clean it up before inflicting it
   on others.

 - Git-based wiki

   There are 2 parts to this that are both huge amounts of work:
   1) Getting data out of {Arch,Parabola}Wiki and into git.
   2) Getting MediaWiki-compatible rendering that references git.

   At some point in the past, I was working on #1, but I don't know if
   I ever published anything.

   I'm now working on #2 (hacking up MediaWiki), but don't have
   anything worth sharing yet.

 - Maven

   Good Maven packaging is the linchpin to a bunch of freedom issues
   with Java packaging.  There are more than 100 freedom issues
   related to Maven in Parabola right now (I've lumped them into a
   giant "Maven-catch-all" on the bugtracker).

   Fun story: Nobody's actually managed to bootstrap/compile Maven
   entirely from source in more than a decade.  Maven dependency
   management just downloads the last version!

   I've been working on "maven-dist" to make compiling Maven possible.
   It also deals with a bunch of other Maven-related packages.  I seem
   to always think I'm closer to being done than I am.

   However, there are several things that can already be backported
   from maven-dist into packages, but I haven't because I'm lazy.
   Namely, "simple-maven" (living in `rules/_generic` in
   maven-dist.git), which is a simple clone of Maven that I wrote that
   is able to correctly build most Maven-using packages.  It should be
   used to replace Maven in most PKGBUILDs.

   https://projects.parabola.nu/~lukeshu/maven-dist.git/

 - Having dbscripts hook into XBS (or: Arch packages in abslibre.git)

   XBS is the generic mechanism for talking to ABS/ABSLibre/whatever
   replaces them.

   This integration would allow abslibre.git to have the PKGBUILDS
   from Arch, as well as keeping a copy that is in sync with the
   packages on each architecture.

   It just needs to call `xbs release-server` for each package while
   runnign `db-update`.  The developer-side part of this is already
   implemented in libretools

   Of course, then we get to the issue of db-sync not actually using
   db-update, but doing everything manually.  Which brings us to...

 - db-import (a replacement for db-sync/abslibre)

   Yeah, it syncs PKGBUILDs and packages together, and a couple other
   improvements.

I'm welcome to help on any of these!  Recently, I've been a little
pre-occupied with all of my classes (hence my sporadic presence on
IRC).

Which of these do you guys think are important?  What else should we
be working on?

--
Happy hacking,
~ Luke Shumaker


From blade.vp2020 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 06:46:52 2014
From: blade.vp2020 at gmail.com (Ali Abdul Ghani)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 22:46:52 -0800
Subject: [Dev] parabola for blind
In-Reply-To: <54835E06.1010105@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWa5udbsyN42MZmLMctBQqtuXiVJj=jP=WjtP2wvUqe0K9wkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54755EB0.2090103@riseup.net> <54756F86.9060405@riseup.net>
 <54770BB0.6020804@riseup.net>
 <CAHWa5uc_bA0ce2b=8rE=uam+v3moP4fy_mf_huk1TcvmsBhwRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <548342BF.3030205@riseup.net> <54835E06.1010105@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAHWa5ucBHdPU_VOxLEV0_XHGRGErfBMoRKHrcR9JwNVP_1kJtg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to this great work

Some notes
in TalkingArch If you have a console speaker, you will hear a beep when the boot
prompt is on screen.

and If you have multiple sound cards
you will hear voice recording informing you that multiple sound cards
were detected, and you selected a card by pressing enter
in Talking parabola


I have not heard any beep
I do not have multiple sound cards
To make sure the voice recording


2014-12-06 11:50 ??????-08:00, Andr? Silva <emulatorman at riseup.net>:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 12/06/2014 03:54 PM, Jorge Lopez wrote:
>> On 28/11/14 01:47, Ali Abdul Ghani wrote:
>>> Thank you for this work I think Just grab and install the
>>> talkingarch-git package from the AUR. It depends on archiso-git,
>>>  so you need that as well. See /usr/share/doc/talkingarch/README
>>>  for full instructions.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-11-27 3:32 ??????-08:00, Jorge L?pez <jorginho at riseup.net>:
>>>> On 26/11/14 07:13, Andr? Silva wrote:
>>>>> On 11/26/2014 03:01 AM, Andr? Silva wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/12/2014 01:48 AM, Ali Abdul Ghani wrote:
>>>>>>> hi I am blin
>>>>> the initiative to help people with disabilities to improve
>>>>> their quality of life d i use Screen reader for me, Without
>>>>> Screen reader
>>>>>>> My life becomes difficult It gives me the ability to
>>>>>>> control computer I installed http://talkingarch.tk/ then
>>>>>>>  I follow these instructions to be parabola
>>>>>>> https://wiki.parabola.nu/Migration I wish parabola do a
>>>>>>> TalkArch derivative install CD themselves
>>>>>> ok, i'll include it as task on labs to do it for our distro
>>>>>> soon, thanks for let us know about it.
>>>>> The task has been added on labs [0]
>>>>>
>>>>> [0]:https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/604
>>>>> _______________________________________________ Dev mailing
>>>>> list Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>>>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>>>> I think that it's goodthe initiative to help people with
>>>> disabilities to improve their quality of life.
>>>>
>>>> Un sa?do, Jorge L?pez
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> I adapt the talkingarch to talkingparabola. You can test it and
>> report the bugs or things that can be improve:
>> https://repo.parabola.nu/iso/talkingparabola/parabola-2014.12.06-dual.iso
>>
>>
> I've put it to downloading section on our website [0]
> Meanwhile, we should create the torrent and magnet files for it.
>
> [0]:https://wiki.parabola.nu/Get_Parabola#TalkingParabola
>
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-- 
Think not of them, thou hast thy music too


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec  7 08:01:04 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 09:01:04 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <59EE8F01-D6AF-4032-AFC5-49ACECCE4170@riseup.net>
 (ingegnue@riseup.net's message of "Sat, 06 Dec 2014 23:31:02 +0000")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <5482023D.90207@riseup.net> <54820326.2010602@riseup.net>
 <54830226.4060507@riseup.net>
 <59EE8F01-D6AF-4032-AFC5-49ACECCE4170@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <87d27vany7.fsf@hackers.camp>

ingegnue <ingegnue at riseup.net> writes:

> Well, I sympathize, but to be against capitalism, you don't have to be against money. 
>
> Money predates capitalism. Before money there were gifts and debts,
> and barter was only ever used with strangers or would-be
> enemies. (Source: anthropologist David Graeber.) The 1% exist not
> because of money, but because of a series of steps that occured to get
> us where we are today in capitalism:
>
> Step 1: laying claim to land and resources (capital) with violence, and then charging people to live on that land and use those resources 
> Step 2: then forcing them to work on that land and have the surplus of their labor being taken from them in order to survive. 
> Step 3: ever more intricate mutations of the above.
>
> Roughly, some people debate that money needs to be gotten rid of,
> while others say that the end of ruling classes owning the resources
> is sufficient. So you (Aurelien) would fall into the first
> category. However since Parabola already supports free software (which
> in economics means everyone can access the means of production, in
> this case software) I will safely assume that Parabola will not
> (require) charge for its use, so that leaves two approaches:
>
> 1) A gift economy that uses no currency
>
> 2) A gift economy that uses currency 
>
> When put into practice, if method #1 is chosen, will the
> gifts/donations be of labor (e.g. code) and materials (e.g. servers,
> mirrors)? This is a worldwide project: What happens if someone wants
> to support the project materially despite not having time, and they
> cannot for instance donate equipment because of the prohibitive cost
> of transporting it, or because of taxes or sanctions in either
> country?
>
> Aurelien, what do you think?

That the project can accept material, if now the country where the
material is send fall under tax or sanctions in any country, the
information have to be shared throw social network to UNESCO and UN
because knowledge is a right and that country is going against knowledge
since this project is completly free as in freedom and price, the
project have this power by the way because everything prove that all is
do for sharing knowledge.

Money is an ~4000 years old, from its born, Humanity loose more than it
won in its own evolution.

It is time to make our best to evolve to type1, one of the step is going
a bit more far than money.

The WWW2 bring us very nice tools with the UDHR, get time to read it,
you have already the right to do most of things you claim. So just claim
for it with the right n? of the law.

Privacy, knowledge, freedom are already part of statement of the UDHR,
dignity is just the 6th words of the preambule.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml/


> Regards,
> IngeGNUe
>
> On December 6, 2014 8:18:30 AM EST, "Jorge L?pez" <jorginho at riseup.net> wrote:
>>On 05/12/14 20:10, coadde wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Andr? Silva wrote:
>>> > On 12/05/2014 04:32 PM, Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
>>> >>> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't come
>>> >>> from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
>>> >>> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to
>>> >>> develop features that are commercially useful to them.
>>>
>>> >> This highly reminds me of [0].
>>>
>>> >> [0]
>>> >> http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html
>>>
>>> >>> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay
>>> >>> that way, no need for bureaucratic management.
>>>
>>> >> +1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.
>>> >> (While scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)
>>>
>>> >>> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a
>>> >>> non-profit organization?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
>>> >>>
>>> >>> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
>>> >>>
>>> >>> * will be have a bank account?
>>>
>>> >> Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.
>>>
>>> >>> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so,
>>> >>> how will be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if
>>> >>> the return in development is fair?
>>>
>>> >> There is at least one person who says they would donate only if
>>> >> there was a Parabola Project that shared the money between
>>> >> developers in a fair way.
>>>
>>> >>> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ? my third issue with donations...
>>>
>>> >> +1
>>>
>>> > +1 how mtjm analysed everything, perfect!
>>>
>>> +1
>>
>>+1
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Dev mailing list
>>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Sun Dec  7 08:09:24 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 03:09:24 -0500
Subject: [Dev] Upgrade linux-libre drops support for FTDI USB Serial
	Device
In-Reply-To: <20141029192522.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
References: <20141027204112.GA629@donderklumpen.de>
 <87bnowcfpz.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
 <20141028204732.GA1144@donderklumpen.de>
 <20141029192522.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
Message-ID: <8761dnyj7v.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>

> > > I've got an ftdi device somewhere at home--I'll see if I can replicate
> > > the issue tonight.
> > does it work for you?

Hey, sorry I never replied!

I ended up staying late, so I didn't get to it that night... then I
sort of forgot about it.

Anyway, I can't replicate the issue.

> it seem to reliably recognize the device and provide a working /dev/ttyUSB0 right after (with privileged user):
> # lsusb -v
> That command kind of behaves like activating the port or device. Might this be a kernel bug?

Perhaps, though I'm more inclined to blame udev.

If I have a chance, I'll mess around more trying to replicate it.
I'll be pretty busy for at least the next week though...

--
Happy hacking,
~ Luke Shumaker


From icarious at hacari.org  Sun Dec  7 10:38:56 2014
From: icarious at hacari.org (Icarious)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 16:08:56 +0530
Subject: [Dev]  [Monthy tech talk] December 2014
In-Reply-To: <87a930x8rp.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
References: <87a930x8rp.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20141207160856.88365b02338bce96b35a55e1@hacari.org>

An excellent way to kick this off.  

>  - Having dbscripts hook into XBS (or: Arch packages in abslibre.git)

+1. I think this is very important and of high priority right now. However we may also consider fetching only sources from arch and build our own as per mtjm's suggestion.  

-- 
Icarious
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From hellekin at gnu.org  Sun Dec  7 13:32:46 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 10:32:46 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org> <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/06/2014 02:39 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> This is exactly what the 1% want us to think, and this is exactly what
> make them run.
>
*** May I suggest you read Heather Marsh's latest article on "How we
came to be ruled by Death Eaters"?  It's part of a series that blasts
mirrors of illusions about our society is run and built.  That one is
particularly interesting regarding the trade economy.

https://georgiebc.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/how-we-came-to-be-ruled-by-death-eaters/

> By refusing money we refuse that system, we get out of the 99% and the
> 1%
>
*** I know one person who lives by refusing the system entirely: not
using money, and not using government-sanctioned documents.  He lives
well, but I didn't hear him mention traveling outside Europe.  He may
not use money, but I've seen him mention Bitcoins, and using a laptop
and a smartphone.  As far as I know someone, at some point, had to
exchange these items with money in order to have them end up in his hands.

Money is not the issue.  As Heather puts it:

"Trade economy replaced societal approval with approval based on each
person?s ability to be of service to the powerful. The trade economy
eventually interrupted almost all social relationships and replaced them
with industry. Social approval was replaced with currency to the point
that a person?s worth is now commonly given as a currency value.
Currency is a powerful seductive tool because it allows acceptance into
the most privileged spots of all societies with no effort required to
gain social approval or accept the norms and values of the society."

I mostly lived the last 5 years without income, without paying rent,
without buy much more than the necessary for survival.  I was very happy
last year to be able to upgrade from a Thinkpad X31 from 2000 to a newer
machine.  I paid this machine with money.  Without the money, I couldn't
have virtualization capability on my laptop, and that would certainly
impede my freedom to learn and improve my skills, and contribute to the
community I'm a part of.

Aur?lien, I would be very surprised if you connected to the Internet
without money, and absolutely flaberghasted if your ISP would connect to
the Internet without money as well.  Honestly, you should consider
getting your feet back on the ground and do like Stallman did when there
was only corporate non-free software: he used what was available to
steer towards software freedom, and did not start by trying to obtain
binary results from paper and ink.

> We Prove them that another running solution is possible at top
> technological level.
>
*** Please inspire us.  Do you have land to cultivate?  Maybe people can
join you there.

> Money is not so old in the history of humanity and if the things don't
> goes right before, the first day we have build temple of money, world
> goes more and more in disorder.
>
*** I urge you to read the article mentioned above, that I translated
yesterday at
https://medium.com/pour-la-plus-belle/comment-nous-en-sommes-arrives-a-etre-diriges-par-les-mange-morts-f8ab9fe0be6b
.  You will find similarities with your point of view.  But solidarity
is more important than rejecting money outright IMO.  If you can find a
way to do all without money, good, but Internet (still) requires money
to work.

Tabula Rasa is not an anarchist concept, it was a reaction to Feudalism.
 The anarchist does not come from Heaven, pure and holy, but raises from
the mud, with what's at hand and the resolve to realize freedom for all.
 There's no comparison between using a lever to unstuck wheel from the
mud, and using the same wheel to crush people.  Doing the former does
not necessarily mean you will do the latter.

> Do what need to be done because you care about.
>
*** Hopefully that is not incompatible with accepting donations.

==
hk
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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Sun Dec  7 14:39:15 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 11:39:15 -0300
Subject: [Dev] [Monthy tech talk] December 2014
In-Reply-To: <20141207160856.88365b02338bce96b35a55e1@hacari.org>
References: <87a930x8rp.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
 <20141207160856.88365b02338bce96b35a55e1@hacari.org>
Message-ID: <87bnnfv818.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Icarious <icarious at hacari.org> writes:

> An excellent way to kick this off.  
>
>>  - Having dbscripts hook into XBS (or: Arch packages in abslibre.git)
>
> +1. I think this is very important and of high priority right
> now. However we may also consider fetching only sources from arch and
> build our own as per mtjm's suggestion.

checkout dagpkg on libretools, it was the last
build-everything-from-source-in-correct-order tool we worked on with
mtjm for mips64el and it worked really well.  it isn't adapted to work
with libremakepkg yet.

-- 
http://endefensadelsl.org
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec  7 16:15:38 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 17:15:38 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Sun,
 07 Dec 2014 10:32:46 -0300")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp>

hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:

> On 12/06/2014 02:39 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> This is exactly what the 1% want us to think, and this is exactly what
>> make them run.
>>
> *** May I suggest you read Heather Marsh's latest article on "How we
> came to be ruled by Death Eaters"?  It's part of a series that blasts
> mirrors of illusions about our society is run and built.  That one is
> particularly interesting regarding the trade economy.
>
> https://georgiebc.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/how-we-came-to-be-ruled-by-death-eaters/
>
>> By refusing money we refuse that system, we get out of the 99% and the
>> 1%
>>
> *** I know one person who lives by refusing the system entirely: not
> using money, and not using government-sanctioned documents.  He lives
> well, but I didn't hear him mention traveling outside Europe.  He may
> not use money, but I've seen him mention Bitcoins, and using a laptop
> and a smartphone.  As far as I know someone, at some point, had to
> exchange these items with money in order to have them end up in his hands.
>
> Money is not the issue.  As Heather puts it:
>
> "Trade economy replaced societal approval with approval based on each
> person?s ability to be of service to the powerful. The trade economy
> eventually interrupted almost all social relationships and replaced them
> with industry. Social approval was replaced with currency to the point
> that a person?s worth is now commonly given as a currency value.
> Currency is a powerful seductive tool because it allows acceptance into
> the most privileged spots of all societies with no effort required to
> gain social approval or accept the norms and values of the society."
>
> I mostly lived the last 5 years without income, without paying rent,
> without buy much more than the necessary for survival.  I was very happy
> last year to be able to upgrade from a Thinkpad X31 from 2000 to a newer
> machine.  I paid this machine with money.  Without the money, I couldn't
> have virtualization capability on my laptop, and that would certainly
> impede my freedom to learn and improve my skills, and contribute to the
> community I'm a part of.
>
> Aur?lien, I would be very surprised if you connected to the Internet
> without money, and absolutely flaberghasted if your ISP would connect to
> the Internet without money as well.  Honestly, you should consider
> getting your feet back on the ground and do like Stallman did when there
> was only corporate non-free software: he used what was available to
> steer towards software freedom, and did not start by trying to obtain
> binary results from paper and ink.
>
>> We Prove them that another running solution is possible at top
>> technological level.
>>
> *** Please inspire us.  Do you have land to cultivate?  Maybe people can
> join you there.
>
>> Money is not so old in the history of humanity and if the things don't
>> goes right before, the first day we have build temple of money, world
>> goes more and more in disorder.
>>
> *** I urge you to read the article mentioned above, that I translated
> yesterday at
> https://medium.com/pour-la-plus-belle/comment-nous-en-sommes-arrives-a-etre-diriges-par-les-mange-morts-f8ab9fe0be6b
> .  You will find similarities with your point of view.  But solidarity
> is more important than rejecting money outright IMO.  If you can find a
> way to do all without money, good, but Internet (still) requires money
> to work.
>
> Tabula Rasa is not an anarchist concept, it was a reaction to Feudalism.
>  The anarchist does not come from Heaven, pure and holy, but raises from
> the mud, with what's at hand and the resolve to realize freedom for all.
>  There's no comparison between using a lever to unstuck wheel from the
> mud, and using the same wheel to crush people.  Doing the former does
> not necessarily mean you will do the latter.
>
>> Do what need to be done because you care about.
>>
> *** Hopefully that is not incompatible with accepting donations.
>
> ==
> hk
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

There is lot of arguments to pray for the money temple.

If people used all their energy to realize most beautifull utopia rather
than worst distopia, the world should be clean and people able to travel
from different bubble of Universes.

Parabola have run fine during that last five years without money.

What change that the project now need money?

If Parabola suddenly make/take money, in the same way of thinking, why
does the FSF and GNU does not pay us for what we do? 

Why some people should give us money and not GNU and FSF?

If Parabola make/take money, why Parabola should not employ all of us?
us? who us? who will decide who will have the right to be payed for
what?

Is money K.I.S.S. in a project like that?

Money is one more element to think that we do not have before, some more
time to loose, but as some say very important.

So how money will be distribute? why this method and not another one? in
bitcoins why not in gold? bitcoins is someone somewhere, gold is just
gold and have ever been be gold.

What you want to use money, but you don't want to use gold? and why not
GNU bucks?

The fever of gold ...

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From hellekin at gnu.org  Sun Dec  7 17:02:11 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 14:02:11 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>	<877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>	<5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
 <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>	<548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>	<F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>	<87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org> <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/07/2014 01:15 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> There is lot of arguments to pray for the money temple.
> 
> If people used all their energy to realize most beautifull utopia rather
> than worst distopia, the world should be clean and people able to travel
> from different bubble of Universes.
> 
*** Avec des si on mettrait Bordeaux en bouteilles :P

Well, I and others have been spending all our energy to realize
beautiful utopias, until we reached a point where we needed to buy
shoes, or be attended at a hospital.  Approval economy works for a
while, then it doesn't anymore.  I really wish it would work, and I'm
doing whatever I can for it to work in general, but the painful truth is
that people are stuck in the murky trade economy, and that's not utopia,
but day-to-day struggle with the unfortunate reality.

You could say: right, then just stop contributing to the project and do
something else, and someone else will take your place.  But this is not
that simple.  When you're on a job that allows you to work for free,
you're not really working for free: you're getting paid to contribute.
If you don't have a job, then you have to generate income somehow.
That's a job.  I really appreciate your attachment to keeping money out
of the picture, but I'd like you to share the part of the picture where
you do not use money.

Regarding being sponsored by the GNU project or the FSF, guess what,
that's receiving donations because right now, the FSF is running a
fundraising campaign with a goal of USD 525,000.  If that is not money,
please tell me what I missed.  Your position seems more and more
contradictory.

==
hk

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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec  7 17:26:46 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 18:26:46 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <54848813.7030104@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Sun,
 07 Dec 2014 14:02:11 -0300")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp>

hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:

> On 12/07/2014 01:15 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> There is lot of arguments to pray for the money temple.
>> 
>> If people used all their energy to realize most beautifull utopia rather
>> than worst distopia, the world should be clean and people able to travel
>> from different bubble of Universes.
>> 
> *** Avec des si on mettrait Bordeaux en bouteilles :P
>
> Well, I and others have been spending all our energy to realize
> beautiful utopias, until we reached a point where we needed to buy
> shoes, or be attended at a hospital.  Approval economy works for a
> while, then it doesn't anymore.  I really wish it would work, and I'm
> doing whatever I can for it to work in general, but the painful truth is
> that people are stuck in the murky trade economy, and that's not utopia,
> but day-to-day struggle with the unfortunate reality.
>
> You could say: right, then just stop contributing to the project and do
> something else, and someone else will take your place.  But this is not
> that simple.  When you're on a job that allows you to work for free,
> you're not really working for free: you're getting paid to contribute.
> If you don't have a job, then you have to generate income somehow.
> That's a job.  I really appreciate your attachment to keeping money out
> of the picture, but I'd like you to share the part of the picture where
> you do not use money.
>
> Regarding being sponsored by the GNU project or the FSF, guess what,
> that's receiving donations because right now, the FSF is running a
> fundraising campaign with a goal of USD 525,000.  If that is not money,
> please tell me what I missed.  Your position seems more and more
> contradictory.
>
> ==
> hk
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

No my position stay the same from the first day : no money in that
project.

That was five years before.

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec  7 17:35:25 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 18:35:25 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Sun, 07 Dec 2014 18:26:46 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>

> hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:
>> *** Avec des si on mettrait Bordeaux en bouteilles :P

On met Paris en bouteille ... le Bordeau on le bois.

.

Pour autant c'est parceque l'on cherche toujours ? faire taire les plus
belles utopie plut?t que de se battre pour elles et trouver des
solutions ? celle-ci, que les utopies n'avance pas alors quelle le
pourraient.

Alors l?ve toi et bat toi.


<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>


-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From hellekin at gnu.org  Sun Dec  7 18:04:38 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 15:04:38 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>	<877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>	<5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
 <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>	<548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>	<F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>	<87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>	<878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>	<874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/07/2014 02:35 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> Pour autant c'est parceque l'on cherche toujours ? faire taire les plus
> belles utopie plut?t que de se battre pour elles et trouver des
> solutions ? celle-ci, que les utopies n'avance pas alors quelle le
> pourraient.
> 
> Alors l?ve toi et bat toi.
>
*** Translation:

Meanwhile, because the most beautiful utopias are forced into silence
instead of called for being fought for, and thus find solutions for
them, they don't work as they should.

So, stand up and fight.

*

Again, I appreciate the position.  But you fail to respond to the
question of money: do you live without money?

Do you realize that because every participant has to find money outside
the project, the project itself depends on, at best and as fauno
suggested, project-based services, and at worst, a day job, that the
utopia is not working as it should?

Meanwhile, non-free, corporate-based projects built on surveillance
megabucks such as Internet.org, are progressing way faster, and leaving
entire populations prisoners of proprietary and trade economy
ideologies, while they could be working on solidarity-based solutions.

I'd like to understand what you're calling for exactly, if that is
simply to survive with what you have, or is it to make an utopia turn
real.  In that case, instead of discourse, I'd like to read about how
you propose to address the issue that is coming up, that people need to
put food on their table, and they're having difficulties dealing with it
from their current standpoint.

According to the principle you're flying the flag of, impure money won't
be touching the project.  Therefore, you're stifling solidarity by
refusing a mean to sustain contributors.  If that is not the case, then
please, explain how you envision working around the difficulty met by
the people who proposed opening the project to receiving donations so
that they can keep afloat while maintaining their current dedication,
instead of being forced to drive their attention away from it.

I'm all ears as to how to set up money-less solutions that empower
people to contribute and reinforce not only the technology, but the
community as well.  Otherwise I have to say BTDT: while some people
dedicate their life to the project, others are simply contributing in
their "free time", and the one-way route of the former ends to an impasse.

Once again, the issue at stake is not money or not money--first prove me
that you don't use it, and I can believe you--but what is meant by
community, and solidarity, and how does that come into play at the level
of a software project.  Is it considered a common pool resource where
every contributor benefits from it to "fend for themselves", or is their
something more than libertarian capitalist trade economy behind this?

==
hk

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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec  7 18:30:44 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 19:30:44 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Sun,
 07 Dec 2014 15:04:38 -0300")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>

hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:

> On 12/07/2014 02:35 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> Pour autant c'est parceque l'on cherche toujours ? faire taire les plus
>> belles utopie plut?t que de se battre pour elles et trouver des
>> solutions ? celle-ci, que les utopies n'avance pas alors quelle le
>> pourraient.
>> 
>> Alors l?ve toi et bat toi.
>>
> *** Translation:
>
> Meanwhile, because the most beautiful utopias are forced into silence
> instead of called for being fought for, and thus find solutions for
> them, they don't work as they should.
>
> So, stand up and fight.
>
> *
>
> Again, I appreciate the position.  But you fail to respond to the
> question of money: do you live without money?

No but I but I do my best to reduce the bills.

> Do you realize that because every participant has to find money outside
> the project, the project itself depends on, at best and as fauno
> suggested, project-based services, and at worst, a day job, that the
> utopia is not working as it should?

I do as I can too.

> Meanwhile, non-free, corporate-based projects built on surveillance
> megabucks such as Internet.org, are progressing way faster, and leaving
> entire populations prisoners of proprietary and trade economy
> ideologies, while they could be working on solidarity-based solutions.
>
> I'd like to understand what you're calling for exactly, if that is
> simply to survive with what you have, or is it to make an utopia turn
> real.  In that case, instead of discourse, I'd like to read about how
> you propose to address the issue that is coming up, that people need to
> put food on their table, and they're having difficulties dealing with it
> from their current standpoint.
>
> According to the principle you're flying the flag of, impure money won't
> be touching the project.  Therefore, you're stifling solidarity by
> refusing a mean to sustain contributors.  If that is not the case, then
> please, explain how you envision working around the difficulty met by
> the people who proposed opening the project to receiving donations so
> that they can keep afloat while maintaining their current dedication,
> instead of being forced to drive their attention away from it.
>
> I'm all ears as to how to set up money-less solutions that empower
> people to contribute and reinforce not only the technology, but the
> community as well.  Otherwise I have to say BTDT: while some people
> dedicate their life to the project, others are simply contributing in
> their "free time", and the one-way route of the former ends to an impasse.
>
> Once again, the issue at stake is not money or not money--first prove me
> that you don't use it, and I can believe you--but what is meant by
> community, and solidarity, and how does that come into play at the level
> of a software project.  Is it considered a common pool resource where
> every contributor benefits from it to "fend for themselves", or is their
> something more than libertarian capitalist trade economy behind this?

Money represent many troubles.
- some will not join the project for the utopia, since the utopia will
not be anymore
- some will join the project for money only, the one for the utopia will
not come anymore since the utopia will not be anymore sinc you have
killed it
- some people will join the project for the power to control and get
more money and not for the utopia of the project since the utopia will
not be anymore since you have killed it

you kill the utopia and ask what is the trouble? hmm

"d?barquer la bouche en coeur"


> ==
> hk
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From hellekin at gnu.org  Sun Dec  7 18:44:02 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 15:44:02 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>	<877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>	<5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
 <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>	<548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>	<F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>	<87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>	<878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>	<874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>	<548496B6.2050502@gnu.org>
 <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <54849FF2.5050508@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/07/2014 03:30 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> you kill the utopia and ask what is the trouble? hmm
>
*** Since you're not interested in discussing, and I have proved my
points, I have nothing more to say.  I really hope the people who
brought forward the need to generate sustainability for themselves and
the project can find satisfying solutions that won't kill the utopia by
lack of utopians's ability to contribute their time, something unique
and way more valuable than any money's capacity to damage the project.

==
hk

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From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Sun Dec  7 19:33:19 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 14:33:19 -0500
Subject: [Dev] Orphan Libre package [iceweasel] marked out-of-date
In-Reply-To: <87388uwnyq.fsf@deshackra.com>
References: <20141204153436.848.25329@parabola.nu>
 <87388uwnyq.fsf@deshackra.com>
Message-ID: <87388rxnk0.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>

At Fri, 05 Dec 2014 01:30:33 -0600,
Jorge Araya Navarro wrote:
> (a T60, I choose that machine because they didn't have the T1000, ba
> dum tsk!)

Ahhh!


From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Sun Dec  7 19:49:07 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 14:49:07 -0500
Subject: [Dev] [Monthy tech talk] December 2014
In-Reply-To: <20141207160856.88365b02338bce96b35a55e1@hacari.org>
References: <87a930x8rp.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
 <20141207160856.88365b02338bce96b35a55e1@hacari.org>
Message-ID: <871tobxmto.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>

At Sun, 7 Dec 2014 16:08:56 +0530,
Icarious wrote:
> >  - Having dbscripts hook into XBS (or: Arch packages in abslibre.git)
> 
> +1. I think this is very important and of high priority right
> now. However we may also consider fetching only sources from arch
> and build our own as per mtjm's suggestion.

Fetching only sources from Arch I think is a good idea, but feel that
it's a little farther away.  Besides needing more code to be written,
there are a couple of decisions to be made:

 - How are they built?  By autobuilder, or by human packagers?
   - If packagers:
     - That's a lot more work, and I think encourages people to be
       sloppy.
   - If autobuilder:
     - I think that this hugely increases the risk of releasing a
       broken package, if there isn't human intervention.  Right
       now[1], autobuilder is only used for extremely simple packages.
     - How do we handle signing?  Do we pass through the sigs of Arch
       developers in any way?
     - Where would it run?  That would be a lot of load to put on the
       main server.
       - We could build a job server, where a packager has a daemon
         that gets jobs from the main server, and runs them locally.
         That makes signing more complex (each dev needs 2 keys; one
         for normal builds, one for autobuilder builds), and means
         way more code to be written.

[1]: Oh, that's another thing on my list!  Autobuilder isn't set up on
the current server.

--
Happy hacking,
~ Luke Shumaker


From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Sun Dec  7 19:59:48 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 20:59:48 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [Monthy tech talk] December 2014
In-Reply-To: <871tobxmto.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> (Luke Shumaker's message of
 "Sun, 07 Dec 2014 14:49:07 -0500")
References: <87a930x8rp.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
 <20141207160856.88365b02338bce96b35a55e1@hacari.org>
 <871tobxmto.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <87388rgrij.fsf@mtjm.eu>

>    - If packagers:
>      - That's a lot more work, and I think encourages people to be
>        sloppy.

I believe we should aim for packages not being built by packagers on
their systems.

>    - If autobuilder:
>      - I think that this hugely increases the risk of releasing a
>        broken package, if there isn't human intervention.  Right
>        now[1], autobuilder is only used for extremely simple packages.

Can we detect enough broken packages automatically?  (Other distros run
tests after the build.)  We had no testing on mips64el, we still have no
testing for interactions between Arch and Parabola packages.

>      - How do we handle signing?  Do we pass through the sigs of Arch
>        developers in any way?

Have one key for all packages, make the build server sign the packages
that it gets?  Use developer keys only for packages sent to the build
server?  (This is needed to fix the usual missing key issues.)

>      - Where would it run?  That would be a lot of load to put on the
>        main server.
>        - We could build a job server, where a packager has a daemon
>          that gets jobs from the main server, and runs them locally.
>          That makes signing more complex (each dev needs 2 keys; one
>          for normal builds, one for autobuilder builds), and means
>          way more code to be written.

This looks too complex, while it won't be simpler with e.g. two central
build servers (or one that is easy to replace).
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From ingegnue at riseup.net  Mon Dec  8 03:47:38 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2014 03:47:38 +0000
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87d27vany7.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87a932uevv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <5482023D.90207@riseup.net> <54820326.2010602@riseup.net>
 <54830226.4060507@riseup.net>
 <59EE8F01-D6AF-4032-AFC5-49ACECCE4170@riseup.net>
 <87d27vany7.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <56665CA3-5637-4525-A871-719BF4AECEE7@riseup.net>

The UN or whoever is not going to listen... :P

Considering the practical implications. The question is not of complaining to the UN, but of how to work around those obstacles. Even if there were no taxes or sanctions, we would still have to deal with the price of shipping, and carbon emissions, if you care about that sort of thing. And money would therefore still be involved. 

So technically to remain consistent in your position, you would have to have the project be one where only labor, and not resources, are donated. 

Development and maintenance involves money:
? That about the equipment project contributors use? The project requires equipment and there is not exactly a clear division between labor and equipment, and said equipment is tainted by evil money. 
? Also, the Internet? How many people are gonna serve Parabola ISOs or the website over a wireless connection in a free Internet caf?? No one, of course.
? To register the domain name, you usually need to pay money.
? Everything that is keeping the project online is coming out of someone's pocket, likely several people's. Is there something bad about distributing the cost among users?

What are you opposing, exactly, if money is involved in every step? 

On December 7, 2014 3:01:04 AM EST, aurelien at hackers.camp wrote:
>ingegnue <ingegnue at riseup.net> writes:
>
>> Well, I sympathize, but to be against capitalism, you don't have to
>be against money. 
>>
>> Money predates capitalism. Before money there were gifts and debts,
>> and barter was only ever used with strangers or would-be
>> enemies. (Source: anthropologist David Graeber.) The 1% exist not
>> because of money, but because of a series of steps that occured to
>get
>> us where we are today in capitalism:
>>
>> Step 1: laying claim to land and resources (capital) with violence,
>and then charging people to live on that land and use those resources 
>> Step 2: then forcing them to work on that land and have the surplus
>of their labor being taken from them in order to survive. 
>> Step 3: ever more intricate mutations of the above.
>>
>> Roughly, some people debate that money needs to be gotten rid of,
>> while others say that the end of ruling classes owning the resources
>> is sufficient. So you (Aurelien) would fall into the first
>> category. However since Parabola already supports free software
>(which
>> in economics means everyone can access the means of production, in
>> this case software) I will safely assume that Parabola will not
>> (require) charge for its use, so that leaves two approaches:
>>
>> 1) A gift economy that uses no currency
>>
>> 2) A gift economy that uses currency 
>>
>> When put into practice, if method #1 is chosen, will the
>> gifts/donations be of labor (e.g. code) and materials (e.g. servers,
>> mirrors)? This is a worldwide project: What happens if someone wants
>> to support the project materially despite not having time, and they
>> cannot for instance donate equipment because of the prohibitive cost
>> of transporting it, or because of taxes or sanctions in either
>> country?
>>
>> Aurelien, what do you think?
>
>That the project can accept material, if now the country where the
>material is send fall under tax or sanctions in any country, the
>information have to be shared throw social network to UNESCO and UN
>because knowledge is a right and that country is going against
>knowledge
>since this project is completly free as in freedom and price, the
>project have this power by the way because everything prove that all is
>do for sharing knowledge.
>
>Money is an ~4000 years old, from its born, Humanity loose more than it
>won in its own evolution.
>
>It is time to make our best to evolve to type1, one of the step is
>going
>a bit more far than money.
>
>The WWW2 bring us very nice tools with the UDHR, get time to read it,
>you have already the right to do most of things you claim. So just
>claim
>for it with the right n? of the law.
>
>Privacy, knowledge, freedom are already part of statement of the UDHR,
>dignity is just the 6th words of the preambule.
>
>http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml/
>
>
>> Regards,
>> IngeGNUe
>>
>> On December 6, 2014 8:18:30 AM EST, "Jorge L?pez"
><jorginho at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>On 05/12/14 20:10, coadde wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andr? Silva wrote:
>>>> > On 12/05/2014 04:32 PM, Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
>>>> >>> this would be a problem, to me, if the donations don't come
>>>> >>> from the community, who ideally would pay to develop features
>>>> >>> useful for everyone, but from a company, who ultimately pays to
>>>> >>> develop features that are commercially useful to them.
>>>>
>>>> >> This highly reminds me of [0].
>>>>
>>>> >> [0]
>>>> >> http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2014/12/03/conservancy-supporter.html
>>>>
>>>> >>> i think this list is a self-organized commitee and should stay
>>>> >>> that way, no need for bureaucratic management.
>>>>
>>>> >> +1; self-organized committee of both developers and users.
>>>> >> (While scheduled IRC meetings might be useful.)
>>>>
>>>> >>> * accepting funding and donations would require to form a
>>>> >>> non-profit organization?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> * if so where would it be located? we're all over the world
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> * will be accept which currency/ies? or only cryptocoins?[0]
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> * will be have a bank account?
>>>>
>>>> >> Or get a fiscal sponsor, leaving the same questions.
>>>>
>>>> >>> * or, will parabola hackers accept personal donations? if so,
>>>> >>> how will be keep track of how much everyone is receiving and if
>>>> >>> the return in development is fair?
>>>>
>>>> >> There is at least one person who says they would donate only if
>>>> >> there was a Parabola Project that shared the money between
>>>> >> developers in a fair way.
>>>>
>>>> >>> my fault, i'll fix it when you pay me!! >:)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ? my third issue with donations...
>>>>
>>>> >> +1
>>>>
>>>> > +1 how mtjm analysed everything, perfect!
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>
>>>+1
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Dev mailing list
>>>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dev mailing list
>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
><#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>



From ingegnue at riseup.net  Mon Dec  8 04:04:40 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2014 04:04:40 +0000
Subject: [Dev] Trusted developer or no?
Message-ID: <C54F71EB-962A-4DD5-AD2A-FBD602B14A10@riseup.net>

Just a quick question. The ISO I downloaded a week or so ago is signed by The Mighty Gravi. They're not on the master keys list; are they a trusted dev? Preferably I would like a signed answer from a trusted dev...to calm my paranoia...por favor ^.^


From ingegnue at riseup.net  Mon Dec  8 04:54:15 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2014 04:54:15 +0000
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <54849FF2.5050508@gnu.org>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org> <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <54849FF2.5050508@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <D26146AF-CC09-46E2-BACF-9A5A1AED0B0B@riseup.net>

In addition to the need for devs to sustain themselves, there is (which is what I feel motivates me to write) the feeling of a need to give back in some manner. Giving and reciprocity is the glue of a community.

"Why is it that, when one receives a gift from a friend (a drink, a dinner invitation, a compliment), one feels somehow obliged to reciprocate in kind? Why is it that a recipient of generosity often somehow feels reduced if he or she cannot?" - David Graeber

FWIW

On December 7, 2014 1:44:02 PM EST, hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA512
>
>On 12/07/2014 03:30 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> you kill the utopia and ask what is the trouble? hmm
>>
>*** Since you're not interested in discussing, and I have proved my
>points, I have nothing more to say.  I really hope the people who
>brought forward the need to generate sustainability for themselves and
>the project can find satisfying solutions that won't kill the utopia by
>lack of utopians's ability to contribute their time, something unique
>and way more valuable than any money's capacity to damage the project.
>
>==
>hk
>
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>=hsBM
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>_______________________________________________
>Dev mailing list
>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev



From blade.vp2020 at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 12:24:28 2014
From: blade.vp2020 at gmail.com (Ali Abdul Ghani)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 04:24:28 -0800
Subject: [Dev] Beginners' guide in ParabolaWiki
Message-ID: <CAHWa5ufKL1Pt3DX4TNOXPJM4EOfQQhz9x3p+HNYj2XPTtwPq3A@mail.gmail.com>

hi
the Beginners' guide in ParabolaWiki is Empty
We can re-directed from Arch Wiki


From alfplayer at mailoo.org  Mon Dec  8 13:58:36 2014
From: alfplayer at mailoo.org (Esteban Carnevale)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 10:58:36 -0300
Subject: [Dev] parabola for blind
In-Reply-To: <548342BF.3030205@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWa5udbsyN42MZmLMctBQqtuXiVJj=jP=WjtP2wvUqe0K9wkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54755EB0.2090103@riseup.net> <54756F86.9060405@riseup.net>
 <54770BB0.6020804@riseup.net>
 <CAHWa5uc_bA0ce2b=8rE=uam+v3moP4fy_mf_huk1TcvmsBhwRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <548342BF.3030205@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20141208105836.f0a39e680837d738e9fec4c1@mailoo.org>

I installed a base Parabola system using this ISO. I did not test the audio. It worked without flaws.


-- 
Esteban Carnevale <alfplayer at mailoo.org>


From alfplayer at mailoo.org  Mon Dec  8 15:01:00 2014
From: alfplayer at mailoo.org (Esteban Carnevale)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 12:01:00 -0300
Subject: [Dev] Beginners' guide in ParabolaWiki
In-Reply-To: <CAHWa5ufKL1Pt3DX4TNOXPJM4EOfQQhz9x3p+HNYj2XPTtwPq3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWa5ufKL1Pt3DX4TNOXPJM4EOfQQhz9x3p+HNYj2XPTtwPq3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20141208120100.06048d573dce798c376ba0ea@mailoo.org>

As many ArchWiki pages it contains information which assists in using 
nonfree software.

-- 
Esteban Carnevale <alfplayer at mailoo.org>


From blade.vp2020 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 12:59:48 2014
From: blade.vp2020 at gmail.com (Ali Abdul Ghani)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 04:59:48 -0800
Subject: [Dev] parabola for blind
In-Reply-To: <20141208105836.f0a39e680837d738e9fec4c1@mailoo.org>
References: <CAHWa5udbsyN42MZmLMctBQqtuXiVJj=jP=WjtP2wvUqe0K9wkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <54755EB0.2090103@riseup.net> <54756F86.9060405@riseup.net>
 <54770BB0.6020804@riseup.net>
 <CAHWa5uc_bA0ce2b=8rE=uam+v3moP4fy_mf_huk1TcvmsBhwRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <548342BF.3030205@riseup.net>
 <20141208105836.f0a39e680837d738e9fec4c1@mailoo.org>
Message-ID: <CAHWa5ufa8nm-giLVL2tF0uFEnO8qnpAkEz8h+pNCsh0YQmcSCg@mail.gmail.com>

it Do not talk after reboot

2014-12-08 5:58 ??????-08:00, Esteban Carnevale <alfplayer at mailoo.org>:
> I installed a base Parabola system using this ISO. I did not test the audio.
> It worked without flaws.
>
>
> --
> Esteban Carnevale <alfplayer at mailoo.org>
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>


-- 
Think not of them, thou hast thy music too


From zatroch at riseup.net  Tue Dec  9 17:26:04 2014
From: zatroch at riseup.net (zatroch at riseup.net)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 18:26:04 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org>
References: " <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>"
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> " <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>"
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
 "\"<87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>	<548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>"
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>"
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> " <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>"
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> " <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>"
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <28995bfe7ac94ada79428f4f42ca0ec3@riseup.net>

FYI; Greece's stock exchange lost today 13% of value, the biggest 
single-day loss since 1987. And Japan is a lost country in recession 
(again) with young people wasting their life energizer and motivator - 
the semen.

I do read every other day 
http://www.theguardian.com/business/series/guardian-business-live?view=mobile 
// note that they are taking money from Bill Gates in order to not 
criticize him publicly

Says a random PirateParty fellow and FLOSS hacktivist who quit finally 
Gmail & Google account while also destroying the Telef?nica SIM card and 
isolating a bit further (on college campus).

You wanna hear an utopistic way forward? Then read on!

0.| http://marshallbrain.com/basic-income.htm
1.| 
http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/2ggkud/basic_income_ama_series_i_am_marshall_brain/


From hahj87 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 00:03:51 2014
From: hahj87 at gmail.com (Joshua Haase)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 18:03:51 -0600
Subject: [Dev] [Monthy tech talk] December 2014
In-Reply-To: <87388rgrij.fsf@mtjm.eu>
References: <87a930x8rp.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
 <20141207160856.88365b02338bce96b35a55e1@hacari.org>
 <871tobxmto.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> <87388rgrij.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <87ppbse5g8.fsf@gmail.com>

I also believe that we should aim for packages to be autobuilt and tested.

Micha? Mas?owski <mtjm at mtjm.eu> writes:

>>    - If packagers:
>>      - That's a lot more work, and I think encourages people to be
>>        sloppy.
>
> I believe we should aim for packages not being built by packagers on
> their systems.
>
>>    - If autobuilder:
>>      - I think that this hugely increases the risk of releasing a
>>        broken package, if there isn't human intervention.  Right
>>        now[1], autobuilder is only used for extremely simple packages.
>
> Can we detect enough broken packages automatically?  (Other distros run
> tests after the build.)  We had no testing on mips64el, we still have no
> testing for interactions between Arch and Parabola packages.
>
>>      - How do we handle signing?  Do we pass through the sigs of Arch
>>        developers in any way?
>
> Have one key for all packages, make the build server sign the packages
> that it gets?  Use developer keys only for packages sent to the build
> server?  (This is needed to fix the usual missing key issues.)
>
>>      - Where would it run?  That would be a lot of load to put on the
>>        main server.
>>        - We could build a job server, where a packager has a daemon
>>          that gets jobs from the main server, and runs them locally.
>>          That makes signing more complex (each dev needs 2 keys; one
>>          for normal builds, one for autobuilder builds), and means
>>          way more code to be written.
>
> This looks too complex, while it won't be simpler with e.g. two central
> build servers (or one that is easy to replace).
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev


From ingegnue at riseup.net  Wed Dec 10 01:23:50 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 01:23:50 +0000
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <28995bfe7ac94ada79428f4f42ca0ec3@riseup.net>
References: " <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>"
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> " <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>"
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> "\"<87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>"
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>"
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> " <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>"
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> " <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>"
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <28995bfe7ac94ada79428f4f42ca0ec3@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <4ED82A25-FF5D-42E1-8B99-49FFDD798CD4@riseup.net>

That's nice and all, but just because it has to do with politics doesn't mean that has anything to do with *the direction of the Parabola project* o.o

On December 9, 2014 12:26:04 PM EST, zatroch at riseup.net wrote:
>FYI; Greece's stock exchange lost today 13% of value, the biggest 
>single-day loss since 1987. And Japan is a lost country in recession 
>(again) with young people wasting their life energizer and motivator - 
>the semen.
>
>I do read every other day 
>http://www.theguardian.com/business/series/guardian-business-live?view=mobile
>
>// note that they are taking money from Bill Gates in order to not 
>criticize him publicly
>
>Says a random PirateParty fellow and FLOSS hacktivist who quit finally 
>Gmail & Google account while also destroying the Telef?nica SIM card
>and 
>isolating a bit further (on college campus).
>
>You wanna hear an utopistic way forward? Then read on!
>
>0.| http://marshallbrain.com/basic-income.htm
>1.| 
>http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/2ggkud/basic_income_ama_series_i_am_marshall_brain/
>_______________________________________________
>Dev mailing list
>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev



From smv at ceata.org  Wed Dec 10 05:10:27 2014
From: smv at ceata.org (Sorin-Mihai =?ISO-8859-1?Q?V=E2rgolici?=)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 07:10:27 +0200
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <28995bfe7ac94ada79428f4f42ca0ec3@riseup.net>
References: " <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 " <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> " <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 " <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> "\"<87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 " <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 " <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> " <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 " <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> " <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 " <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <28995bfe7ac94ada79428f4f42ca0ec3@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1418188227.2270.18.camel@triscel1>

Seriously, most of the emails in this thread have nothing to do with
organising the project.

Since no one would create an NGO from scratch right now, just for
Parabola, because that would require extra money, the Ceata Foundation,
incorporated in Romania, can act in the near future as a legal entity
for the Parabola project. Something like what sfconservancy.org does,
but based in Europe, instead of US, if the Parabola community considers
that European laws regarding legal/economical aspects of a non-profit
NGO are apropiate.

Now that we can let this thing aside, let's get back to organise the
project. It doesn't have to be controlled by someone, just organised. 

-- 
Sorin-Mihai V?rgolici
http://vargolici.com/contact

Do you support freedom of arts and technology?
Join as a supporting member! (https://ceata.org/%c3%aenscrieri.html)



From aurelien at hackers.camp  Wed Dec 10 18:41:42 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:41:42 +0100
Subject: [Dev] help on building packer
Message-ID: <87oarbny8p.fsf@hackers.camp>


Anyone can please remove packer from repo.

I need to rebuild it and repush it ... but ::

[uncle at bob packer]$ sudo libremakepkg
==> Initializing the chroot...
==> Starting pre-build activities...
 |  ==> Downloading blacklist of proprietary software packages...done
  |    -> Inspecting package pkgname=packer (20140810-1)
  ==> Downloading sources...
   |  ==> Making package: packer 20140810-1 (Wed Dec 10 19:38:07 CET
   2014)
    |  ==> Retrieving sources...
     |    -> Updating packer git repo...
      |  Fetching origin
       |  ==> Validating source files with md5sums...
        |      packer ... Skipped
        ==> Starting to build the package...
         |  ==> Making package: packer 20140810-1 (Wed Dec 10 19:38:09
         CET 2014)
          |  ==> Checking runtime dependencies...
           |  ==> Checking buildtime dependencies...
            |  ==> Retrieving sources...
             |    -> Updating packer git repo...
              |  error: cannot open FETCH_HEAD: Read-only file system
               |
                |  ==> WARNING: Failure while updating packer git repo
                 |  ==> Validating source files with md5sums...
                  |      packer ... Skipped
                   |  ==> Extracting sources...
                    |    -> Creating working copy of packer git repo...
                     |  Cloning into 'packer'...
                      |  done.
                       |  ==> Starting pkgver()...
                        |  ==> Updated version: packer 20140817-1
                         |  ==> Sources are ready.
                          |  ==> Cleaning chroot...
                           |    -> Creating a full list of packages...
                            |    -> No packages to remove
                             |  ==> Making package: packer 20140817-1
                 |  (Wed Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014)
                  |  ==> Checking runtime dependencies...
                   |  ==> Checking buildtime dependencies...
                    |  ==> WARNING: Using existing src/ tree
                     |  ==> Entering fakeroot environment...
                      |  ==> Starting package()...
                       |  ==> Tidying install...
                        |    -> Purging unwanted files...
                         |    -> Removing libtool files...
                          |    -> Removing static library files...
                           |    -> Compressing man and info pages...
                            |    -> Stripping unneeded symbols from
                 |  binaries and libraries...
                  |  ==> Creating package "packer"...
                   |    -> Generating .PKGINFO file...
                    |    -> Generating .MTREE file...
                     |    -> Compressing package...
                      |  ==> Leaving fakeroot environment.
                       |  ==> Finished making: packer 20140817-1 (Wed
                 |  Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014)
                 ==> Starting post-build activities...
                  |  ==> Extracting database to a temporary location...
                   |  ==> Adding package
                 |  'packer-20140817-1-any.pkg.tar.xz'
                  |    -> Computing checksums...
                   |    -> Creating 'desc' db entry...
                    |    -> Creating 'depends' db entry...
                     |  ==> Creating updated database file
                 |  'repo.db.tar.gz'
                 ==> Copying log and package files out of the chroot...
                 [uncle at bob packer]$ librestage pcr
                 fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount
                 |  point /home)
                 Stopping at filesystem boundary
                 |  (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).
                 ==> ERROR: Nothing was staged
                 

or maybe that does not comes from that ?

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES
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From ingegnue at riseup.net  Wed Dec 10 19:34:58 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:34:58 +0000
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <1418188227.2270.18.camel@triscel1>
References: " <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org> "
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> " <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp> "
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> "\"<87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org> "
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net> "
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> " <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org> "
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> " <54848813.7030104@gnu.org> "
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <28995bfe7ac94ada79428f4f42ca0ec3@riseup.net>
 <1418188227.2270.18.camel@triscel1>
Message-ID: <64B7032A-35E9-45D6-8E0D-01ACA948CDB9@riseup.net>

That's not true, really. 

The thread started with two concerns: 1) starting a committee informed by consensus decision making, and 2) accepting donations and how the devs want to share them.

It bears stating that one of the trusted devs were considering leaving apparently on account of introducing money into the project, on ethical grounds.

I'm just saying, take my money. I want Parabola to stay alive.

That is all.

On December 10, 2014 12:10:27 AM EST, "Sorin-Mihai V?rgolici" <smv at ceata.org> wrote:
>Seriously, most of the emails in this thread have nothing to do with
>organising the project.
>
>Since no one would create an NGO from scratch right now, just for
>Parabola, because that would require extra money, the Ceata Foundation,
>incorporated in Romania, can act in the near future as a legal entity
>for the Parabola project. Something like what sfconservancy.org does,
>but based in Europe, instead of US, if the Parabola community considers
>that European laws regarding legal/economical aspects of a non-profit
>NGO are apropiate.
>
>Now that we can let this thing aside, let's get back to organise the
>project. It doesn't have to be controlled by someone, just organised. 
>
>-- 
>Sorin-Mihai V?rgolici
>http://vargolici.com/contact
>
>Do you support freedom of arts and technology?
>Join as a supporting member! (https://ceata.org/%c3%aenscrieri.html)
>
>_______________________________________________
>Dev mailing list
>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev



From emulatorman at riseup.net  Wed Dec 10 21:22:57 2014
From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Silva?=)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:22:57 -0200
Subject: [Dev] help on building packer
In-Reply-To: <87oarbny8p.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <87oarbny8p.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <5488B9B1.8090502@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 12/10/2014 04:41 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> Anyone can please remove packer from repo.
> 
> I need to rebuild it and repush it ... but ::
> 
> [uncle at bob packer]$ sudo libremakepkg ==> Initializing the
> chroot... ==> Starting pre-build activities... |  ==> Downloading
> blacklist of proprietary software packages...done |    ->
> Inspecting package pkgname=packer (20140810-1) ==> Downloading
> sources... |  ==> Making package: packer 20140810-1 (Wed Dec 10
> 19:38:07 CET 2014) |  ==> Retrieving sources... |    -> Updating
> packer git repo... |  Fetching origin |  ==> Validating source
> files with md5sums... |      packer ... Skipped ==> Starting to
> build the package... |  ==> Making package: packer 20140810-1 (Wed
> Dec 10 19:38:09 CET 2014) |  ==> Checking runtime dependencies... |
> ==> Checking buildtime dependencies... |  ==> Retrieving
> sources... |    -> Updating packer git repo... |  error: cannot
> open FETCH_HEAD: Read-only file system | |  ==> WARNING: Failure
> while updating packer git repo |  ==> Validating source files with
> md5sums... |      packer ... Skipped |  ==> Extracting sources... |
> -> Creating working copy of packer git repo... |  Cloning into
> 'packer'... |  done. |  ==> Starting pkgver()... |  ==> Updated
> version: packer 20140817-1 |  ==> Sources are ready. |  ==>
> Cleaning chroot... |    -> Creating a full list of packages... |
> -> No packages to remove |  ==> Making package: packer 20140817-1 |
> (Wed Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014) |  ==> Checking runtime
> dependencies... |  ==> Checking buildtime dependencies... |  ==>
> WARNING: Using existing src/ tree |  ==> Entering fakeroot
> environment... |  ==> Starting package()... |  ==> Tidying
> install... |    -> Purging unwanted files... |    -> Removing
> libtool files... |    -> Removing static library files... |    ->
> Compressing man and info pages... |    -> Stripping unneeded
> symbols from |  binaries and libraries... |  ==> Creating package
> "packer"... |    -> Generating .PKGINFO file... |    -> Generating
> .MTREE file... |    -> Compressing package... |  ==> Leaving
> fakeroot environment. |  ==> Finished making: packer 20140817-1
> (Wed |  Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014) ==> Starting post-build
> activities... |  ==> Extracting database to a temporary
> location... |  ==> Adding package |
> 'packer-20140817-1-any.pkg.tar.xz' |    -> Computing checksums... |
> -> Creating 'desc' db entry... |    -> Creating 'depends' db
> entry... |  ==> Creating updated database file |  'repo.db.tar.gz' 
> ==> Copying log and package files out of the chroot... [uncle at bob
> packer]$ librestage pcr fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent
> up to mount |  point /home) Stopping at filesystem boundary |
> (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set). ==> ERROR: Nothing was
> staged
> 
> 
> or maybe that does not comes from that ?

I've built a new version of packer, test it if works well
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From nobody at repo.parabola.nu  Wed Dec 10 21:27:44 2014
From: nobody at repo.parabola.nu (Parabola Website Notification)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 21:27:44 -0000
Subject: [Dev] Orphan Libre package [linux-libre] marked out-of-date
Message-ID: <20141210212744.845.65865@parabola.nu>

jdoe at mailinator.com wants to notify you that the following packages may be out-of-date:


* linux-libre 3.17.6_gnu-1 [libre] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/i686/linux-libre/
* linux-libre 3.17.6_gnu-1 [libre] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/x86_64/linux-libre/
* linux-libre-docs 3.17.6_gnu-1 [libre] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/i686/linux-libre-docs/
* linux-libre-docs 3.17.6_gnu-1 [libre] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/x86_64/linux-libre-docs/
* linux-libre-headers 3.17.6_gnu-1 [libre] (i686): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/i686/linux-libre-headers/
* linux-libre-headers 3.17.6_gnu-1 [libre] (x86_64): https://parabolagnulinux.org/packages/libre/x86_64/linux-libre-headers/


The user provided the following additional text:

3.18 has been released.

http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/releases/3.18-gnu/



From aurelien at hackers.camp  Thu Dec 11 05:55:32 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 06:55:32 +0100
Subject: [Dev] help on building packer
In-Reply-To: <5488B9B1.8090502@riseup.net> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Andr=C3=A9?=
 Silva"'s message of "Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:22:57 -0200")
References: <87oarbny8p.fsf@hackers.camp> <5488B9B1.8090502@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <87bnnaohm3.fsf@hackers.camp>

Andr? Silva <emulatorman at riseup.net> writes:

> On 12/10/2014 04:41 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone can please remove packer from repo.
>> 
>> I need to rebuild it and repush it ... but ::
>> 
>> [uncle at bob packer]$ sudo libremakepkg ==> Initializing the
>> chroot... ==> Starting pre-build activities... |  ==> Downloading
>> blacklist of proprietary software packages...done |    ->
>> Inspecting package pkgname=packer (20140810-1) ==> Downloading
>> sources... |  ==> Making package: packer 20140810-1 (Wed Dec 10
>> 19:38:07 CET 2014) |  ==> Retrieving sources... |    -> Updating
>> packer git repo... |  Fetching origin |  ==> Validating source
>> files with md5sums... |      packer ... Skipped ==> Starting to
>> build the package... |  ==> Making package: packer 20140810-1 (Wed
>> Dec 10 19:38:09 CET 2014) |  ==> Checking runtime dependencies... |
>> ==> Checking buildtime dependencies... |  ==> Retrieving
>> sources... |    -> Updating packer git repo... |  error: cannot
>> open FETCH_HEAD: Read-only file system | |  ==> WARNING: Failure
>> while updating packer git repo |  ==> Validating source files with
>> md5sums... |      packer ... Skipped |  ==> Extracting sources... |
>> -> Creating working copy of packer git repo... |  Cloning into
>> 'packer'... |  done. |  ==> Starting pkgver()... |  ==> Updated
>> version: packer 20140817-1 |  ==> Sources are ready. |  ==>
>> Cleaning chroot... |    -> Creating a full list of packages... |
>> -> No packages to remove |  ==> Making package: packer 20140817-1 |
>> (Wed Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014) |  ==> Checking runtime
>> dependencies... |  ==> Checking buildtime dependencies... |  ==>
>> WARNING: Using existing src/ tree |  ==> Entering fakeroot
>> environment... |  ==> Starting package()... |  ==> Tidying
>> install... |    -> Purging unwanted files... |    -> Removing
>> libtool files... |    -> Removing static library files... |    ->
>> Compressing man and info pages... |    -> Stripping unneeded
>> symbols from |  binaries and libraries... |  ==> Creating package
>> "packer"... |    -> Generating .PKGINFO file... |    -> Generating
>> .MTREE file... |    -> Compressing package... |  ==> Leaving
>> fakeroot environment. |  ==> Finished making: packer 20140817-1
>> (Wed |  Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014) ==> Starting post-build
>> activities... |  ==> Extracting database to a temporary
>> location... |  ==> Adding package |
>> 'packer-20140817-1-any.pkg.tar.xz' |    -> Computing checksums... |
>> -> Creating 'desc' db entry... |    -> Creating 'depends' db
>> entry... |  ==> Creating updated database file |  'repo.db.tar.gz' 
>> ==> Copying log and package files out of the chroot... [uncle at bob
>> packer]$ librestage pcr fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent
>> up to mount |  point /home) Stopping at filesystem boundary |
>> (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set). ==> ERROR: Nothing was
>> staged
>> 
>> 
>> or maybe that does not comes from that ?
>
> I've built a new version of packer, test it if works well
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

That does not explain to me from where come the trouble during the
build, but thanks.

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Thu Dec 11 05:16:12 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 02:16:12 -0300
Subject: [Dev] [Gaetan Bisson] [arch-dev-public] Moving gnutls to [core]
Message-ID: <874mt2yder.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>


-- 
http://hackcoop.com.ar


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Subject: [arch-dev-public] Moving gnutls to [core]
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:46:27 -1000
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Thu Dec 11 17:20:44 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 18:20:44 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Sun, 07 Dec 2014 20:03:03 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp>


There is something we can do about Parabola stuff we could "sell"

The best should to sell them from http://shop.fsf.org/category/gnu-gear/

On a side we let FSF do the job of selling but by the way they keep the
money to the FSF.

Now I don't know if it is possible, I don't know if we can choose what
we want to be sold but by that way the money goes directly to FSF and
the Parabola Project stay fully independent.

If the FSF is ok, /me request for a T-shirt and a mug :-p

For the rest, if a "Parabola Project" need money to its dev, the best
stay that we publish a request on front page and share the news about
that needs.

Then the FSF, internally, and/or externally we could get the solution
directly.



-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES
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From emulatorman at riseup.net  Thu Dec 11 17:57:23 2014
From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFNpbHZh?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 15:57:23 -0200
Subject: [Dev] help on building packer
In-Reply-To: <87bnnaohm3.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <87oarbny8p.fsf@hackers.camp> <5488B9B1.8090502@riseup.net>
 <87bnnaohm3.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <5489DB03.2010208@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 12/11/2014 03:55 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> Andr? Silva <emulatorman at riseup.net> writes:
> 
>> On 12/10/2014 04:41 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anyone can please remove packer from repo.
>>> 
>>> I need to rebuild it and repush it ... but ::
>>> 
>>> [uncle at bob packer]$ sudo libremakepkg ==> Initializing the 
>>> chroot... ==> Starting pre-build activities... |  ==>
>>> Downloading blacklist of proprietary software packages...done |
>>> -> Inspecting package pkgname=packer (20140810-1) ==>
>>> Downloading sources... |  ==> Making package: packer 20140810-1
>>> (Wed Dec 10 19:38:07 CET 2014) |  ==> Retrieving sources... |
>>> -> Updating packer git repo... |  Fetching origin |  ==>
>>> Validating source files with md5sums... |      packer ...
>>> Skipped ==> Starting to build the package... |  ==> Making
>>> package: packer 20140810-1 (Wed Dec 10 19:38:09 CET 2014) |
>>> ==> Checking runtime dependencies... | ==> Checking buildtime
>>> dependencies... |  ==> Retrieving sources... |    -> Updating
>>> packer git repo... |  error: cannot open FETCH_HEAD: Read-only
>>> file system | |  ==> WARNING: Failure while updating packer git
>>> repo |  ==> Validating source files with md5sums... |
>>> packer ... Skipped |  ==> Extracting sources... | -> Creating
>>> working copy of packer git repo... |  Cloning into 'packer'...
>>> |  done. |  ==> Starting pkgver()... |  ==> Updated version:
>>> packer 20140817-1 |  ==> Sources are ready. |  ==> Cleaning
>>> chroot... |    -> Creating a full list of packages... | -> No
>>> packages to remove |  ==> Making package: packer 20140817-1 | 
>>> (Wed Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014) |  ==> Checking runtime 
>>> dependencies... |  ==> Checking buildtime dependencies... |
>>> ==> WARNING: Using existing src/ tree |  ==> Entering fakeroot 
>>> environment... |  ==> Starting package()... |  ==> Tidying 
>>> install... |    -> Purging unwanted files... |    -> Removing 
>>> libtool files... |    -> Removing static library files... |
>>> -> Compressing man and info pages... |    -> Stripping
>>> unneeded symbols from |  binaries and libraries... |  ==>
>>> Creating package "packer"... |    -> Generating .PKGINFO
>>> file... |    -> Generating .MTREE file... |    -> Compressing
>>> package... |  ==> Leaving fakeroot environment. |  ==> Finished
>>> making: packer 20140817-1 (Wed |  Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014) ==>
>>> Starting post-build activities... |  ==> Extracting database to
>>> a temporary location... |  ==> Adding package | 
>>> 'packer-20140817-1-any.pkg.tar.xz' |    -> Computing
>>> checksums... | -> Creating 'desc' db entry... |    -> Creating
>>> 'depends' db entry... |  ==> Creating updated database file |
>>> 'repo.db.tar.gz' ==> Copying log and package files out of the
>>> chroot... [uncle at bob packer]$ librestage pcr fatal: Not a git
>>> repository (or any parent up to mount |  point /home) Stopping
>>> at filesystem boundary | (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not
>>> set). ==> ERROR: Nothing was staged
>>> 
>>> 
>>> or maybe that does not comes from that ?
>> 
>> I've built a new version of packer, test it if works well 
>> _______________________________________________ Dev mailing list 
>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu 
>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>> 
> <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>
> 
> That does not explain to me from where come the trouble during the 
> build, but thanks.
> 
The problem related it was because you built packer under 20140810
version, but how it is a git so packer was built as 20140817 because
was the date that you built it, so i put a automatic date to pkgver
[0] to solve it.

[0]:https://projects.parabola.nu/abslibre.git/commit/?id=df2d8d4f7b6c6dbf1d8d767d12f74fa596241a6b
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Thu Dec 11 18:19:50 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:19:50 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Thu, 11 Dec 2014 18:20:44 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <87tx12m4l5.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> There is something we can do about Parabola stuff we could "sell"

It's not Parabola stuff.  (Unless we get an imaginary monopoly on
y=ax^2+bx+c.)

> Now I don't know if it is possible, I don't know if we can choose what
> we want to be sold but by that way the money goes directly to FSF and
> the Parabola Project stay fully independent.

Suggest it at [0]?

[0] http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Free_Software_Foundation/Ideas#Store_suggestions

> For the rest, if a "Parabola Project" need money to its dev, the best
> stay that we publish a request on front page and share the news about
> that needs.

So the users have to choose which dev to support?
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Thu Dec 11 18:34:32 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:34:32 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87tx12m4l5.fsf@mtjm.eu> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82o?=
 =?utf-8?Q?wski=22's?= message of "Thu,
 11 Dec 2014 19:19:50 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <87tx12m4l5.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <87iohihw7b.fsf@unicorn.home>

mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:

>> There is something we can do about Parabola stuff we could "sell"
>
> It's not Parabola stuff.  (Unless we get an imaginary monopoly on
> y=ax^2+bx+c.)
>
>> Now I don't know if it is possible, I don't know if we can choose what
>> we want to be sold but by that way the money goes directly to FSF and
>> the Parabola Project stay fully independent.
>
> Suggest it at [0]?
>
> [0] http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Free_Software_Foundation/Ideas#Store_suggestions

no, for the moment just send here

>> For the rest, if a "Parabola Project" need money to its dev, the best
>> stay that we publish a request on front page and share the news about
>> that needs.
>
> So the users have to choose which dev to support?

??

s/need money to its dev/need help to be deploy

(example: the project need a big server, the people/organisation/... who
want to help it request the tools directly for the project, send the
access code to the project ...)

<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Thu Dec 11 18:30:00 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:30:00 +0100
Subject: [Dev] help on building packer
In-Reply-To: <5489DB03.2010208@riseup.net> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Andr=C3=A9?=
 Silva"'s message of "Thu, 11 Dec 2014 15:57:23 -0200")
References: <87oarbny8p.fsf@hackers.camp> <5488B9B1.8090502@riseup.net>
 <87bnnaohm3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5489DB03.2010208@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <87mw6uhwev.fsf@unicorn.home>

Andr? Silva <emulatorman at riseup.net> writes:

> On 12/11/2014 03:55 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> Andr? Silva <emulatorman at riseup.net> writes:
>> 
>>> On 12/10/2014 04:41 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Anyone can please remove packer from repo.
>>>> 
>>>> I need to rebuild it and repush it ... but ::
>>>> 
>>>> [uncle at bob packer]$ sudo libremakepkg ==> Initializing the 
>>>> chroot... ==> Starting pre-build activities... |  ==>
>>>> Downloading blacklist of proprietary software packages...done |
>>>> -> Inspecting package pkgname=packer (20140810-1) ==>
>>>> Downloading sources... |  ==> Making package: packer 20140810-1
>>>> (Wed Dec 10 19:38:07 CET 2014) |  ==> Retrieving sources... |
>>>> -> Updating packer git repo... |  Fetching origin |  ==>
>>>> Validating source files with md5sums... |      packer ...
>>>> Skipped ==> Starting to build the package... |  ==> Making
>>>> package: packer 20140810-1 (Wed Dec 10 19:38:09 CET 2014) |
>>>> ==> Checking runtime dependencies... | ==> Checking buildtime
>>>> dependencies... |  ==> Retrieving sources... |    -> Updating
>>>> packer git repo... |  error: cannot open FETCH_HEAD: Read-only
>>>> file system | |  ==> WARNING: Failure while updating packer git
>>>> repo |  ==> Validating source files with md5sums... |
>>>> packer ... Skipped |  ==> Extracting sources... | -> Creating
>>>> working copy of packer git repo... |  Cloning into 'packer'...
>>>> |  done. |  ==> Starting pkgver()... |  ==> Updated version:
>>>> packer 20140817-1 |  ==> Sources are ready. |  ==> Cleaning
>>>> chroot... |    -> Creating a full list of packages... | -> No
>>>> packages to remove |  ==> Making package: packer 20140817-1 | 
>>>> (Wed Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014) |  ==> Checking runtime 
>>>> dependencies... |  ==> Checking buildtime dependencies... |
>>>> ==> WARNING: Using existing src/ tree |  ==> Entering fakeroot 
>>>> environment... |  ==> Starting package()... |  ==> Tidying 
>>>> install... |    -> Purging unwanted files... |    -> Removing 
>>>> libtool files... |    -> Removing static library files... |
>>>> -> Compressing man and info pages... |    -> Stripping
>>>> unneeded symbols from |  binaries and libraries... |  ==>
>>>> Creating package "packer"... |    -> Generating .PKGINFO
>>>> file... |    -> Generating .MTREE file... |    -> Compressing
>>>> package... |  ==> Leaving fakeroot environment. |  ==> Finished
>>>> making: packer 20140817-1 (Wed |  Dec 10 19:38:11 CET 2014) ==>
>>>> Starting post-build activities... |  ==> Extracting database to
>>>> a temporary location... |  ==> Adding package | 
>>>> 'packer-20140817-1-any.pkg.tar.xz' |    -> Computing
>>>> checksums... | -> Creating 'desc' db entry... |    -> Creating
>>>> 'depends' db entry... |  ==> Creating updated database file |
>>>> 'repo.db.tar.gz' ==> Copying log and package files out of the
>>>> chroot... [uncle at bob packer]$ librestage pcr fatal: Not a git
>>>> repository (or any parent up to mount |  point /home) Stopping
>>>> at filesystem boundary | (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not
>>>> set). ==> ERROR: Nothing was staged
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> or maybe that does not comes from that ?
>>> 
>>> I've built a new version of packer, test it if works well 
>>> _______________________________________________ Dev mailing list 
>>> Dev at lists.parabola.nu 
>>> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>>> 
>> <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>
>> 
>> That does not explain to me from where come the trouble during the 
>> build, but thanks.
>> 
> The problem related it was because you built packer under 20140810
> version, but how it is a git so packer was built as 20140817 because
> was the date that you built it, so i put a automatic date to pkgver
> [0] to solve it.
>
> [0]:https://projects.parabola.nu/abslibre.git/commit/?id=df2d8d4f7b6c6dbf1d8d767d12f74fa596241a6b

<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Ok ok!

Thanks :-)

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Thu Dec 11 19:07:12 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:07:12 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87iohihw7b.fsf@unicorn.home> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:34:32 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <87tx12m4l5.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <87iohihw7b.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87egs6huov.fsf@unicorn.home>

aurelien at hackers.camp (Aur?lien DESBRI?RES) writes:

> mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:
>
>>> There is something we can do about Parabola stuff we could "sell"
>>
>> It's not Parabola stuff.  (Unless we get an imaginary monopoly on
>> y=ax^2+bx+c.)
>>
>>> Now I don't know if it is possible, I don't know if we can choose what
>>> we want to be sold but by that way the money goes directly to FSF and
>>> the Parabola Project stay fully independent.
>>
>> Suggest it at [0]?
>>
>> [0]
>> http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Free_Software_Foundation/Ideas#Store_suggestions
>
> no, for the moment just send here
>
>>> For the rest, if a "Parabola Project" need money to its dev, the best
>>> stay that we publish a request on front page and share the news about
>>> that needs.
>>
>> So the users have to choose which dev to support?
>
> ??
>
> s/need money to its dev/need help to be deploy
>
> (example: the project need a big server, the people/organisation/... who
> want to help it request the tools directly for the project, send the
> access code to the project ...)

other exemple ... emulatorman and other suggest a parabola router, (that
is a good idea) He publish what tool he need and an adress to receive
the tool. ...

>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec 12 03:22:49 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 04:22:49 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Packages removed from AUR but present on our servers
Message-ID: <878uidimba.fsf@unicorn.home>


Hi,

This packages (for exemple) have been be removed from AUR

gnuplot-py                                        1.8-3   2012-11-08
10:28:49 +0100   Aur?lien Desbri?res
gnuplot-py                                        1.8-4   2014-01-07
00:40:35 +0000 

what do we do?

let it like that? removed from our repo??


-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec 12 03:43:48 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 04:43:48 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Unknown Packager
Message-ID: <874mt1ilcb.fsf@unicorn.home>


What do we do with the obsolet packages of the Unknown Packager?

mosquitto                                       1.1.3-3   2013-06-03
18:06:54 +0200   Unknown Packager
mosquitto                                       1.3.5-3   2014-11-21
00:00:04 +0000  

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec 12 10:46:29 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:46:29 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Download / Upgrade limited bandwitch on servers
Message-ID: <87wq5xgn7e.fsf@unicorn.home>


It seems that this last days somes mirrors affets the principal server
bandwith because of multiply rsync.

Is there a way to limit that trouble?

From the channel
<jluttine> downloading upgrades is really slow.. :o


Same trouble on my side during build too.

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp
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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Fri Dec 12 11:44:17 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:44:17 -0300
Subject: [Dev] Unknown Packager
In-Reply-To: <874mt1ilcb.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <874mt1ilcb.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87ppbpum7i.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Aur?lien DESBRI?RES <aurelien at hackers.camp> writes:

> What do we do with the obsolet packages of the Unknown Packager?
>
> mosquitto                                       1.1.3-3   2013-06-03
> 18:06:54 +0200   Unknown Packager
> mosquitto                                       1.3.5-3   2014-11-21
> 00:00:04 +0000  

that's weird, i packaged mosquitto but i don't remember which
versions... let me recover my build chroot and upgrade them :)

-- 
http://endefensadelsl.org
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From alfplayer at mailoo.org  Fri Dec 12 11:56:32 2014
From: alfplayer at mailoo.org (Esteban Carnevale)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:56:32 -0300
Subject: [Dev] Download / Upgrade limited bandwitch on servers
In-Reply-To: <87wq5xgn7e.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87wq5xgn7e.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <20141212085632.92959b888a33758fb2347730@mailoo.org>

Following bug #611, multiple connections to rsyncd could be limited like 
this. Limit to 1 connection per host:

iptables -A INPUT -p tcp --syn --dport 875 -m connlimit \
  --connlimit-above 1 -j REJECT

-s can be added to specify the hosts causing this issue, to avoid 
limiting other hosts.

Based on http://ipset.netfilter.org/iptables-extensions.man.html#lbAK


-- 
Esteban Carnevale <alfplayer at mailoo.org>


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec 12 14:11:03 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:11:03 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [Wiki] Hacking Iso page need upgrade
Message-ID: <87siglgdqg.fsf@unicorn.home>


Hi,

I have try to build the iso following the 
https://wiki.parabola.nu/Hacking:ISOs page.

aif link is not good anymore.

I have not modify the page because I don't know if the Hacking ISO need
to follow that step anymore or not.

In front the recent signature trouble, maybe we should make a double
signature on next releases.


-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec 12 15:32:59 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:32:59 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [Hacking ISO] Next Release
Message-ID: <87oar8hoic.fsf@unicorn.home>


*If this is your first time in the hack you have to hack the iso!*

It could be fine/fun to introduce new/next Hackers to Parabola to make
them build the next release.

It could be also fine/fun to build a new release each month, but each time
another hacker of the list.

I am ok to do the job for the next release (if another one want to do it
do not hesitate), but trying to follow the
wiki https://wiki.parabola.nu/Hacking:isos
https://wiki.parabola.nu/Hacking:ISOs
there is different page with differents information.

So if someone could help me to bring them up and working that should be
great.


-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp
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From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Fri Dec 12 18:11:21 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:11:21 +0000
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
Message-ID: <548B2FC9.5070301@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello,

I am wanting to get a raspberry pi, but the only thing is that I would
like a fully-free OS on it. I was thinking that Parabola could have
support since Arch has an ARM version of the pi.

Would it be possible to use the Parabola packages on the pi? And would
it be possible to make linux-libre work on it too?

Thanks,


- ---
Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2

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=PoBb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Fri Dec 12 18:22:50 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:22:50 -0300
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <548B2FC9.5070301@cryptolab.net>
References: <548B2FC9.5070301@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87d27ovibp.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Hello,
>
> I am wanting to get a raspberry pi, but the only thing is that I would
> like a fully-free OS on it. I was thinking that Parabola could have
> support since Arch has an ARM version of the pi.
>
> Would it be possible to use the Parabola packages on the pi? And would
> it be possible to make linux-libre work on it too?

afaik raspberry needed a pretty huge blob to load... that aside, there
was someone working on linux-libre for arm, but we haven't started an
arm repo yet, do you want to? ;)

-- 
}(:=
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec 12 18:36:47 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:36:47 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <548B2FC9.5070301@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:11:21 +0000")
References: <548B2FC9.5070301@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87mw6slnpc.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> I am wanting to get a raspberry pi, but the only thing is that I would
> like a fully-free OS on it.

Please don't.  There are different boards that work without nonfree
software (unless you want graphics acceleration which is being reverse
engineered for some chips).  BeagleBone Black and Cubieboard are other
cheap single board computers which, unlike RPi, boot with a free
bootloader and can be used with no nonfree software on their writable
storage.  (Other AllWinner A10/A13/A20 or iMX6 boards might be ok too.)

> I was thinking that Parabola could have
> support since Arch has an ARM version of the pi.

We need developers and a build server.  (I would do it if I had enough
hope in the project succeeding to spend my weekends on it.)

> Would it be possible to use the Parabola packages on the pi? And would
> it be possible to make linux-libre work on it too?

You want also a deblobbed u-boot.  I know how to make the needed changes
in Linux-libre scripts to support an appropriate board.
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec 12 18:43:53 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:43:53 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Download / Upgrade limited bandwitch on servers
In-Reply-To: <87wq5xgn7e.fsf@unicorn.home> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:46:29 +0100")
References: <87wq5xgn7e.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87iohglndi.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> From the channel
> <jluttine> downloading upgrades is really slow.. :o
>
>
> Same trouble on my side during build too.

I don't remember which mirror do you provide.  Or is this not about
rsync?

We need to change something in these cases:

- if https://www.parabola.nu/mirrors/status/ shows too many outdated
  mirrors and it's confirmed that it's due to syncing being slow

- if primary mirror operators write that rsync is too slow and that we
  should fix it

- if users ask for support for outdated packages since they use outdated
  mirrors

- if other services get too slow when there are too many rsync
  connections
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec 12 18:45:20 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:45:20 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <87d27ovibp.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Nicol=C3=A1?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= Reynolds"'s message
 of "Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:22:50 -0300")
References: <548B2FC9.5070301@cryptolab.net>
 <87d27ovibp.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <878uicvha7.fsf@unicorn.home>

Nicol?s Reynolds <fauno at endefensadelsl.org> writes:

> Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA256
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am wanting to get a raspberry pi, but the only thing is that I would
>> like a fully-free OS on it. I was thinking that Parabola could have
>> support since Arch has an ARM version of the pi.
>>
>> Would it be possible to use the Parabola packages on the pi? And would
>> it be possible to make linux-libre work on it too?
>
> afaik raspberry needed a pretty huge blob to load... that aside, there
> was someone working on linux-libre for arm, but we haven't started an
> arm repo yet, do you want to? ;)
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

BeagleBone Black should be better to use.

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec 12 18:46:51 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:46:51 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <87mw6slnpc.fsf@mtjm.eu> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82o?=
 =?utf-8?Q?wski=22's?= message of "Fri,
 12 Dec 2014 19:36:47 +0100")
References: <548B2FC9.5070301@cryptolab.net> <87mw6slnpc.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <874mt0vh7o.fsf@unicorn.home>

mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:

>> I am wanting to get a raspberry pi, but the only thing is that I would
>> like a fully-free OS on it.
>
> Please don't.  There are different boards that work without nonfree
> software (unless you want graphics acceleration which is being reverse
> engineered for some chips).  BeagleBone Black and Cubieboard are other
> cheap single board computers which, unlike RPi, boot with a free
> bootloader and can be used with no nonfree software on their writable
> storage.  (Other AllWinner A10/A13/A20 or iMX6 boards might be ok too.)
>
>> I was thinking that Parabola could have
>> support since Arch has an ARM version of the pi.
>
> We need developers and a build server.  (I would do it if I had enough
> hope in the project succeeding to spend my weekends on it.)
>
>> Would it be possible to use the Parabola packages on the pi? And would
>> it be possible to make linux-libre work on it too?
>
> You want also a deblobbed u-boot.  I know how to make the needed changes
> in Linux-libre scripts to support an appropriate board.
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

+1 to help on that solution

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec 12 18:49:08 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:49:08 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [Wiki] Hacking Iso page need upgrade
In-Reply-To: <87siglgdqg.fsf@unicorn.home> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:11:03 +0100")
References: <87siglgdqg.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87egs4ln4r.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> I have try to build the iso following the 
> https://wiki.parabola.nu/Hacking:ISOs page.

It's completely obsolete, I have removed the page.
https://wiki.parabola.nu/Hacking:Parabolaiso has newer information, I
don't know how up to date it is.

> In front the recent signature trouble, maybe we should make a double
> signature on next releases.

We should fix our key signing policy.  The person or machine building
and uploading the release should sign it with their key, there is no
need for other signatures.
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec 12 18:52:58 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:52:58 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [Hacking ISO] Next Release
In-Reply-To: <87oar8hoic.fsf@unicorn.home> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:32:59 +0100")
References: <87oar8hoic.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87a92slmyd.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> It could be fine/fun to introduce new/next Hackers to Parabola to make
> them build the next release.
>
> It could be also fine/fun to build a new release each month, but each time
> another hacker of the list.

Why it's not a boring and working thing that is nearly completely
automated?
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec 12 19:00:54 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:00:54 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [Wiki] Hacking Iso page need upgrade
In-Reply-To: <87egs4ln4r.fsf@mtjm.eu> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82o?=
 =?utf-8?Q?wski=22's?= message of "Fri,
 12 Dec 2014 19:49:08 +0100")
References: <87siglgdqg.fsf@unicorn.home> <87egs4ln4r.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <87a92su1zt.fsf@unicorn.home>

mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:

>> I have try to build the iso following the 
>> https://wiki.parabola.nu/Hacking:ISOs page.
>
> It's completely obsolete, I have removed the page.
> https://wiki.parabola.nu/Hacking:Parabolaiso has newer information, I
> don't know how up to date it is.
>
>> In front the recent signature trouble, maybe we should make a double
>> signature on next releases.
>
> We should fix our key signing policy.  The person or machine building
> and uploading the release should sign it with their key, there is no
> need for other signatures.
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Ok thanks!

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Fri Dec 12 19:01:49 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:01:49 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [Hacking ISO] Next Release
In-Reply-To: <87a92slmyd.fsf@mtjm.eu> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82o?=
 =?utf-8?Q?wski=22's?= message of "Fri,
 12 Dec 2014 19:52:58 +0100")
References: <87oar8hoic.fsf@unicorn.home> <87a92slmyd.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <8761dgu1ya.fsf@unicorn.home>

mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:

>> It could be fine/fun to introduce new/next Hackers to Parabola to make
>> them build the next release.
>>
>> It could be also fine/fun to build a new release each month, but each time
>> another hacker of the list.
>
> Why it's not a boring and working thing that is nearly completely
> automated?
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

It was just to bring people deeper in the distro.

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Fri Dec 12 20:24:51 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:24:51 +0000
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <548B4C1F.5030804@cryptolab.net>
References: <548B4C1F.5030804@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <548B4F13.8000903@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256


Hello,

Thanks on your input, I will avoid buying it.

It seemed so promising, It runs on GNU/Linux and it has lots of
support, but I think that the CPU ruins it. (According to my very
short research)

I was wanting to create a simple robot that would drive around
according to Python scripts.

I found a product called the Zumo robot which looked promising;
http://www.pololu.com/blog/275/raspberry-zumo-robot

They also have an Arduino version;
http://www.pololu.com/product/2510

I don't know how an Arduino works, but if you think that will be a
better option, I will consider it. According to the website it says:

"Arduino is an open-source electronics platform based on easy-to-use
hardware and software. It's intended for anyone making interactive
projects."

So maybe it will be better.

I looked at the BeagleBone and the Cubieboard but I don't think they
have the exact same support, and since I am a newbie at robotics and
electronics, it makes it harder to make such a project.

Do you think that the Ardunio is better? Can I use free software on it?

Thanks,


- ---
Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net>

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From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Fri Dec 12 20:51:01 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:51:01 +0000
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
Message-ID: <548B5535.50604@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello,

I don't know what to add to the repo if we make it. I am not
experienced at packaging, making programs compatible with hardware etc.

I don't know much programming at all. I know some Python, but I am
still learning :P

I would require a tutorial and something to practice with. It at would
be good to contribute to Parabola, but I don't know how to.

Thanks,


- ---
Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net>
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec 12 21:37:21 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:37:21 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <548B4F13.8000903@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:24:51 +0000")
References: <548B4C1F.5030804@cryptolab.net> <548B4F13.8000903@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87ppbok0ry.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> I don't know how an Arduino works, but if you think that will be a
> better option, I will consider it. According to the website it says:
>
> "Arduino is an open-source electronics platform based on easy-to-use
> hardware and software. It's intended for anyone making interactive
> projects."

It has an 8-bit microcontroller, it's much different at programming and
more embedded than the ARM systems running GNU/Linux.

> I looked at the BeagleBone and the Cubieboard but I don't think they
> have the exact same support, and since I am a newbie at robotics and
> electronics, it makes it harder to make such a project.

I have no experience and no interest in robotics.  I used the Cubieboard
as a server for a single-user Web app (which wouldn't work with just
512?MiB of RAM) and the BBB as an external SPI programmer to flash
coreboot in my laptop (and also as a EHCI debug device to find that the
laptop fails to find its RAM).

> Do you think that the Ardunio is better? Can I use free software on it?

It's better for some projects, not for others.  You can use it with
fully free software, while some boards have e.g. wifi with nonfree
software.  (The FSF-endorsed 3d printers use Arduino-like boards.)

Arduino is popular, the amount of available documentation and resources
should help.
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From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Fri Dec 12 21:42:31 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 21:42:31 +0000
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
Message-ID: <548B6147.70101@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello,

I took a closer look at the BeagleBoard, and it seems to have the same
pins that the Arduino has. Will addons for the Pi and Arduino work for
the BeagleBoard?

The thing is that the Arduino is limited to its functionality in some
way because of not having a operating system. It would be nice to have
an operating system and be compatible with the pins so I can use it
for a variety of projects.

Thanks,


- ---
Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net>
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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Fri Dec 12 21:53:26 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:53:26 -0300
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <548B6147.70101@cryptolab.net>
References: <548B6147.70101@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87y4qctu09.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Hello,
>
> I took a closer look at the BeagleBoard, and it seems to have the same
> pins that the Arduino has. Will addons for the Pi and Arduino work for
> the BeagleBoard?

can i ask why are you breaking the thread every time? ;)

-- 
http://utopia.partidopirata.com.ar/
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From xylon at t67.eu  Fri Dec 12 21:54:42 2014
From: xylon at t67.eu (Joseph Graham)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 21:54:42 +0000
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <87y4qctu09.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
References: <548B6147.70101@cryptolab.net> <87y4qctu09.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <548B6422.2010401@t67.eu>

On 12/12/14 21:53, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote:
> Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA256
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I took a closer look at the BeagleBoard, and it seems to have the same
>> pins that the Arduino has. Will addons for the Pi and Arduino work for
>> the BeagleBoard?
> can i ask why are you breaking the thread every time? ;)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
Get Spark Core
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec 12 21:59:44 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:59:44 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <548B5535.50604@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of "Fri, 
 12 Dec 2014 20:51:01 +0000")
References: <548B5535.50604@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87lhmcjzqn.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> I don't know what to add to the repo if we make it. I am not
> experienced at packaging, making programs compatible with hardware etc.

We need some research before packaging anything:

- how archlinuxarm.org works (e.g. crossbuilding) and what we should use
  from them?

- what devices we want to support: popular here, sufficiently free and
  also something fast for building packages (some certainly don't
  support cross-compiling and native builds are a good way of finding
  bugs); will we compile packages for ARMv7 only?

- what kernels will we use?  can we avoid deblobbing and releasing a
  different kernel tree for each board?

- u-boot trees; there are existing deblobbing projects for specific
  boards

- what's missing in the development tools that we used for mips64el?

Unless we choose wrong hardware, there should be nearly no issue with
"making programs compatible with hardware" except for choosing kernel
branches and options (which should be well-documented and already done
by other distros).

When we know what to package and decide to build all software from
source (imo we should), then making another repo for it will be easy.
(Later build fixing won't be always easy, but you aren't the only one
not knowing yet what to do there.)

> I don't know much programming at all. I know some Python, but I am
> still learning :P

You need curiosity, willingness and time to learn.  You don't need much
serious programming knowledge for this, while it helps.  We use shell
scripts for most work that needs changing.

> I would require a tutorial and something to practice with. It at would
> be good to contribute to Parabola, but I don't know how to.

I don't know any current packaging issues for x86.
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Fri Dec 12 22:02:33 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 23:02:33 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <548B6147.70101@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of "Fri, 
 12 Dec 2014 21:42:31 +0000")
References: <548B6147.70101@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87h9x0jzly.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> I took a closer look at the BeagleBoard, and it seems to have the same
> pins that the Arduino has. Will addons for the Pi and Arduino work for
> the BeagleBoard?

At least the pin layout is different.  There are different addons for
each board.

> The thing is that the Arduino is limited to its functionality in some
> way because of not having a operating system. It would be nice to have
> an operating system and be compatible with the pins so I can use it
> for a variety of projects.

True.
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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Fri Dec 12 22:11:33 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:11:33 -0300
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <87h9x0jzly.fsf@mtjm.eu>
References: <548B6147.70101@cryptolab.net> <87h9x0jzly.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <87vblgtt62.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Micha? Mas?owski <mtjm at mtjm.eu> writes:
>
>> The thing is that the Arduino is limited to its functionality in some
>> way because of not having a operating system. It would be nice to have
>> an operating system and be compatible with the pins so I can use it
>> for a variety of projects.
>
> True.

i prefer tplink routers for small devices, you can use librecmc on them.
some models come with an usb port so you can do practically anything
with them.  the constraint is ram, most of them only have 32mb, but it's
a lot more than the regular arduino.

-- 
:>
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From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Fri Dec 12 22:52:31 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:52:31 +0000
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
Message-ID: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello,

What packages would we need to compile to have the basic system
(possibly a GUI too)?

The Arch Linux ARM website has a cross compiling section (distcc):
http://archlinuxarm.org/developers/distcc-cross-compiling

And a Distributed Compiling section:
http://archlinuxarm.org/developers/distcc-cross-compiling

I think we should use ARMv7 only since that is the most recent version
and most devices use it. Unless linux-libre makes the Pi work somehow
there is no point in ARMv6. Raspberry Pi will probably get a newer
ARMv7 device one day.

Would it be difficult to make these packages? Could you just copy the
package and modify it? (But I have not checked any packages because I
cannot access it - maybe LibreJS?)

Thanks,


- ---
Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net>
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sat Dec 13 07:16:27 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 08:16:27 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:52:31 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

> Hello,
>
> What packages would we need to compile to have the basic system
> (possibly a GUI too)?
>
> The Arch Linux ARM website has a cross compiling section (distcc):
> http://archlinuxarm.org/developers/distcc-cross-compiling
>
> And a Distributed Compiling section:
> http://archlinuxarm.org/developers/distcc-cross-compiling
>
> I think we should use ARMv7 only since that is the most recent version
> and most devices use it. Unless linux-libre makes the Pi work somehow
> there is no point in ARMv6. Raspberry Pi will probably get a newer
> ARMv7 device one day.
>
> Would it be difficult to make these packages? Could you just copy the
> package and modify it? (But I have not checked any packages because I
> cannot access it - maybe LibreJS?)
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> ---
> Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net>
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Renaming the thread ....

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Sat Dec 13 10:15:53 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:15:53 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:52:31 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87388jc0ti.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> What packages would we need to compile to have the basic system
> (possibly a GUI too)?

We should aim for compiling all packages, maybe except for most from
community.  First just core and libre replacements, then packages needed
for X and a desktop environment.

> The Arch Linux ARM website has a cross compiling section (distcc):
> http://archlinuxarm.org/developers/distcc-cross-compiling
>
> And a Distributed Compiling section:
> http://archlinuxarm.org/developers/distcc-cross-compiling

I.e. native build with cross distcc slaves.  Fauno did this for
mips64el.  I'm not optimistic about its performance when the native host
is slow.  There is also much more possibility for bugs caused by
differing compilers.

> I think we should use ARMv7 only since that is the most recent version
> and most devices use it. Unless linux-libre makes the Pi work somehow
> there is no point in ARMv6. Raspberry Pi will probably get a newer
> ARMv7 device one day.

Ok, like Debian's armhf.

> Would it be difficult to make these packages? Could you just copy the
> package and modify it? (But I have not checked any packages because I
> cannot access it - maybe LibreJS?)

We need to somehow maintain the PKGBUILDs, on mips64el we had a repo
which merged what x86_64 abs had with local changes.  Here we want
packages from Arch, Parabola's abslibre and archlinuxarm.org
(https://github.com/archlinuxarm/PKGBUILDs).  It should be easy to
maintain a git repo with separate branches for these upstreams and
manually merge them.

Do you know any fast multicore boards with much RAM and a SATA port that
would work for native builds?  I think i.MX6 Quad and Tegra K1 are the
fastest SoCs that work without known to me bootloader blobs (Samsung
Exynos is not ok).  Can you find any benchmarks relevant for compilation
speed?  (CPUs, disk I/O, not GPU or SIMD/floating point performance.)
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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Sat Dec 13 16:49:21 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:49:21 -0300
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <87388jc0ti.fsf@mtjm.eu>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87388jc0ti.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <87bnn7trzi.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Micha? Mas?owski <mtjm at mtjm.eu> writes:
> I.e. native build with cross distcc slaves.  Fauno did this for
> mips64el.  I'm not optimistic about its performance when the native
> host is slow.  There is also much more possibility for bugs caused by
> differing compilers.

it was speedy up to the moment of linking and compressing the package,
but it saved me a lot of time even with only one slave.

what i'd like to see though is a way to bootstrap a pkgbuild based
system using only cross-compilers, like openwrt.  i've built
cross-compilers succesfully (since i needed them for the cross distcc
slaves...) but never got to actually build a complex mips64el package
From an i686/x86_64 host.  i've made some tests with simpler, no
dependencies packages by adding the cross-compiler to PATH and some
other flags.

tl;dr: we need a generic way to create parabola ports!

-- 
:>
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Sat Dec 13 18:19:08 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 19:19:08 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Parabola on the Raspberry Pi
In-Reply-To: <87bnn7trzi.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Nicol=C3=A1?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= Reynolds"'s message
 of "Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:49:21 -0300")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87388jc0ti.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <87bnn7trzi.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <87y4qb9zvn.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> it was speedy up to the moment of linking and compressing the package,
> but it saved me a lot of time even with only one slave.

This reminds me that we should make a list of target milestones and
packages that we want to support.  Some nice targets: Eclipse, xmonad.
distcc surely won't help with Java or Haskell compilation.

> what i'd like to see though is a way to bootstrap a pkgbuild based
> system using only cross-compilers, like openwrt.

OpenWRT, Android, etc have all their packaging work specifically
designed for cross-compilation.  It's not like Arch where everything
assumes native builds on x86.

> i've built
> cross-compilers succesfully (since i needed them for the cross distcc
> slaves...) but never got to actually build a complex mips64el package
> From an i686/x86_64 host.

It's hard.

> tl;dr: we need a generic way to create parabola ports!

Or bootstrap from Debian?  (No need on ARM.)
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From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Sat Dec 13 20:12:54 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 20:12:54 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello,

Sorry for the late response, had to go somewhere for the entire day.
Anyway,

Would we modify the PKGBUILD like this?

pkgname=pacman
pkgver=4.1.2
pkgrel=7
pkgdesc="A library-based package manager with dependency support"
arch=('i686' 'x86_64')
url="http://www.archlinux.org/pacman/"
license=('GPL')
groups=('libre')
depends=('bash>=4.2.042-2' 'glibc>=2.17-2' 'libarchive>=3.1.2'
'curl>=7.19.4'
'gpgme' 'pacman-mirrorlist')
checkdepends=('python2' 'fakechroot')
optdepends=('fakeroot: for makepkg usage as normal user')
provides=('pacman-contrib')
conflicts=('pacman-contrib')
replaces=('pacman-contrib')
backup=(etc/pacman.conf etc/makepkg.conf)
options=('strip' 'debug')
source=( #link to pacman source
0001-pacman-key-compatibility-with-gnupg-2.1.patch
0001-Sychronize-filesystem.patch
pacman.conf
makepkg.conf)

Sorry, I don't know of any boards, and searching on duckduckgo led to
nothing.
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From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Sun Dec 14 04:02:42 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 23:02:42 -0500
Subject: [Dev] Unknown Packager
In-Reply-To: <87ppbpum7i.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
References: <874mt1ilcb.fsf@unicorn.home> <87ppbpum7i.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <87egs23ml9.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>

At Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:44:17 -0300,
Nicol?s Reynolds wrote:
> 
> Aur?lien DESBRI?RES <aurelien at hackers.camp> writes:
> 
> > What do we do with the obsolet packages of the Unknown Packager?
> >
> > mosquitto                                       1.1.3-3   2013-06-03
> > 18:06:54 +0200   Unknown Packager
> > mosquitto                                       1.3.5-3   2014-11-21
> > 00:00:04 +0000  
> 
> that's weird, i packaged mosquitto but i don't remember which
> versions... let me recover my build chroot and upgrade them :)

A while ago There was a bug in a version of libretools that caused the
PACKAGER setting set outside of the chroot to not be honored.

-- 
~ Luke


From elcorreo at deshackra.com  Sun Dec 14 07:47:27 2014
From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 01:47:27 -0600
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <28995bfe7ac94ada79428f4f42ca0ec3@riseup.net>
References: <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <54848813.7030104@gnu.org> <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org>
 <28995bfe7ac94ada79428f4f42ca0ec3@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <87egs2u0z4.fsf@deshackra.com>


zatroch at riseup.net writes:

> FYI; [...] And Japan is a lost country in recession 
> (again) with young people wasting their life energizer and motivator - 
> the semen.

FWIW:

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/12/04/The-Sexodus-Part-1-The-Men-Giving-Up-On-Women-And-Checking-Out-Of-Society

and

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/12/09/The-Sexodus-Part-2-Dishonest-Feminist-Panics-Leave-Male-Sexuality-In-Crisis

-- 
Pax et bonum.
Jorge Araya Navarro.
ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
https://es.gravatar.com/shackra


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 14 07:55:04 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 08:55:04 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Sat, 13 Dec 2014 20:12:54 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

> Hello,
>
> Sorry for the late response, had to go somewhere for the entire day.
> Anyway,
>
> Would we modify the PKGBUILD like this?
>
> pkgname=pacman
> pkgver=4.1.2
> pkgrel=7
> pkgdesc="A library-based package manager with dependency support"
> arch=('i686' 'x86_64')
> url="http://www.archlinux.org/pacman/"
> license=('GPL')
> groups=('libre')
> depends=('bash>=4.2.042-2' 'glibc>=2.17-2' 'libarchive>=3.1.2'
> 'curl>=7.19.4'
> 'gpgme' 'pacman-mirrorlist')
> checkdepends=('python2' 'fakechroot')
> optdepends=('fakeroot: for makepkg usage as normal user')
> provides=('pacman-contrib')
> conflicts=('pacman-contrib')
> replaces=('pacman-contrib')
> backup=(etc/pacman.conf etc/makepkg.conf)
> options=('strip' 'debug')
> source=( #link to pacman source
> 0001-pacman-key-compatibility-with-gnupg-2.1.patch
> 0001-Sychronize-filesystem.patch
> pacman.conf
> makepkg.conf)
>
> Sorry, I don't know of any boards, and searching on duckduckgo led to
> nothing.
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

You need 'arm7h' for a working version for armv7

here is a working PKGBUILD example


# $Id$
# Maintainer : Aurelien Desbrieres <aurelien at hackers.camp>
# Contributor: Kyle Keen <keenerd at gmail.com>
# Contributor: Dave Reisner <d at falconindy.com>

pkgname=jansson
pkgver=2.7
pkgrel=1
pkgdesc='C library for encoding, decoding and manipulating JSON data'
arch=('armv7h')
url='http://www.digip.org/jansson/'
depends=('glibc')
license=('MIT')
options=('staticlibs')
source=("http://www.digip.org/$pkgname/releases/$pkgname-$pkgver.tar.bz2")
md5sums=('ffac352f9c5f80a6ae8145d451af2c0e')

build() {
  cd "$srcdir/$pkgname-$pkgver"
    ./configure --prefix=/usr
      make
      }

package() {
  cd "$srcdir/$pkgname-$pkgver"
    make DESTDIR="$pkgdir" install
      install -Dm644 LICENSE
  "$pkgdir/usr/share/licenses/$pkgname/LICENSE"
  }
  

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 14 07:56:00 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 08:56:00 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Unknown Packager
In-Reply-To: <87egs23ml9.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> (Luke Shumaker's message of
 "Sat, 13 Dec 2014 23:02:42 -0500")
References: <874mt1ilcb.fsf@unicorn.home> <87ppbpum7i.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87egs23ml9.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <87zjaqr7fz.fsf@unicorn.home>

Luke Shumaker <lukeshu at sbcglobal.net> writes:

> At Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:44:17 -0300,
> Nicol?s Reynolds wrote:
>> 
>> Aur?lien DESBRI?RES <aurelien at hackers.camp> writes:
>> 
>> > What do we do with the obsolet packages of the Unknown Packager?
>> >
>> > mosquitto                                       1.1.3-3   2013-06-03
>> > 18:06:54 +0200   Unknown Packager
>> > mosquitto                                       1.3.5-3   2014-11-21
>> > 00:00:04 +0000  
>> 
>> that's weird, i packaged mosquitto but i don't remember which
>> versions... let me recover my build chroot and upgrade them :)
>
> A while ago There was a bug in a version of libretools that caused the
> PACKAGER setting set outside of the chroot to not be honored.
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

oh ok ok ...

So what do we do build them when we meet them or request on the list who
want to do the job?

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From elcorreo at deshackra.com  Sun Dec 14 08:38:27 2014
From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 02:38:27 -0600
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
Message-ID: <87d27mtym4.fsf@deshackra.com>


After reading almost all the emails on this topic, I would like to says few things:

1) Money is not in anyway the problem, the problem is in the heart of man (bear in mind what are my
interests[1] so you can now on what basis I say this) which makes his legitimate needs for money in order to
live with dignity a disorder called avarice. In the same way that food is not the problem but neither being
hungry but the disorder called gluttony which man allows to grow as he stop practicing the virtues.

So yeah, the 99% vs 1% stuff is not a problem created by money but by lack of virtue. Want to solve it? practice
the virtues, now.

2) The project needs money in order to avoid getting its domain expired, using certificates from companies
that aren't included by any web browser (We have an interest of Windows and MacOS users visiting the project's
website without getting scared by a Cert warning, right?) or having troubles with the project's servers and
having to relay in other's people or organization good will in order to have everything working and
accessible.

3) for what it is suggested, I don't think we need a committee. If people here on Parabola want to present
themselves as project contributor to other people/news reporters/organizations/etc they should assign
themselves a title based on what they do most, i.e.: you only make package? you are a ?packager monkey? you build tools for other
Parabolers to use within the project? then you are ?Lukeshu?, etc.

4) Arch linux provides a way to increase the priority for bug fixes through bounties placed by the users[2], doing the same in
Parabola is not wrong but, since the Arch guys will solve the issue for us, seems to be pointless. What
technical issues presented to the users exists in Parabola that do not exists in Arch? if they exists and
arise from time to time then it may be a good idea. As I said, money is good and it doesn't dim the good faith
and honesty of the contributor which he carries anyway when working to complete the task.

5) The non-profit stuff should be manage by any institution like the Software Freedom Conservancy or alike,
that's for sure.

6) The money will be needed to stay in someone's pocket, I suggest that it get manage by a institution for
non-profits, like a Software Freedom Conservancy but for managing money, then authorized people from the
project (I guess, "the well-known faces" to put it in some way) just need to say "pay this, this and this" and
such institution will use the money in existence to pay for those things (I don't even know if such thing
exists or it is already cover by any institution from the point 5).

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

[1]: https://www.parabola.nu/hackers/#Shackra
[2]: Ok, I remember this, I'm sure they do but I checked today and there wasn't a button to set a bounty or
something alike... maybe I'm confusing the Arch linux bug tracker with some other Flyspray instance I saw on
the internet that have this feature.
-- 
Pax et bonum.
Jorge Araya Navarro.
ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
https://es.gravatar.com/shackra


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 14 08:57:09 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 09:57:09 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87d27mtym4.fsf@deshackra.com> (Jorge Araya Navarro's message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 02:38:27 -0600")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <87d27mtym4.fsf@deshackra.com>
Message-ID: <87sigir4m2.fsf@unicorn.home>

Jorge Araya Navarro <elcorreo at deshackra.com> writes:

> After reading almost all the emails on this topic, I would like to says few things:
>
> 1) Money is not in anyway the problem, the problem is in the heart of
> man (bear in mind what are my
> interests[1] so you can now on what basis I say this) which makes his
> legitimate needs for money in order to
> live with dignity a disorder called avarice. In the same way that food
> is not the problem but neither being
> hungry but the disorder called gluttony which man allows to grow as he
> stop practicing the virtues.
>
> So yeah, the 99% vs 1% stuff is not a problem created by money but by
> lack of virtue. Want to solve it? practice
> the virtues, now.
>
> 2) The project needs money in order to avoid getting its domain
> expired, using certificates from companies
> that aren't included by any web browser (We have an interest of
> Windows and MacOS users visiting the project's
> website without getting scared by a Cert warning, right?) or having
> troubles with the project's servers and
> having to relay in other's people or organization good will in order
> to have everything working and
> accessible.
>
> 3) for what it is suggested, I don't think we need a committee. If
> people here on Parabola want to present
> themselves as project contributor to other people/news
> reporters/organizations/etc they should assign
> themselves a title based on what they do most, i.e.: you only make
> package? you are a ?packager monkey? you build tools for other
> Parabolers to use within the project? then you are ?Lukeshu?, etc.
>
> 4) Arch linux provides a way to increase the priority for bug fixes
> through bounties placed by the users[2], doing the same in
> Parabola is not wrong but, since the Arch guys will solve the issue
> for us, seems to be pointless. What
> technical issues presented to the users exists in Parabola that do not
> exists in Arch? if they exists and
> arise from time to time then it may be a good idea. As I said, money
> is good and it doesn't dim the good faith
> and honesty of the contributor which he carries anyway when working to
> complete the task.
>
> 5) The non-profit stuff should be manage by any institution like the
> Software Freedom Conservancy or alike,
> that's for sure.
>
> 6) The money will be needed to stay in someone's pocket, I suggest
> that it get manage by a institution for
> non-profits, like a Software Freedom Conservancy but for managing
> money, then authorized people from the
> project (I guess, "the well-known faces" to put it in some way) just
> need to say "pay this, this and this" and
> such institution will use the money in existence to pay for those
> things (I don't even know if such thing
> exists or it is already cover by any institution from the point 5).
>
> Those are my thoughts on the matter.
>
> [1]: https://www.parabola.nu/hackers/#Shackra
> [2]: Ok, I remember this, I'm sure they do but I checked today and
> there wasn't a button to set a bounty or
> something alike... maybe I'm confusing the Arch linux bug tracker with
> some other Flyspray instance I saw on
> the internet that have this feature.
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Sounds wise.

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Sun Dec 14 09:25:27 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 09:25:27 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net>
 <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net>
 <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello,

Is this all we need to start making these packages compatible with
ARM? Do we need to do anything else?

When should we start the repo?


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=Ntic
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Sun Dec 14 09:25:59 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:25:59 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87d27mtym4.fsf@deshackra.com> (Jorge Araya Navarro's message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 02:38:27 -0600")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <87d27mtym4.fsf@deshackra.com>
Message-ID: <87tx0yzioo.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> that aren't included by any web browser (We have an interest of
> Windows and MacOS users visiting the project's
> website without getting scared by a Cert warning, right?)

Trisquel users too.

> 4) Arch linux provides a way to increase the priority for bug fixes
> through bounties placed by the users[2], doing the same in
> Parabola is not wrong but, since the Arch guys will solve the issue
> for us, seems to be pointless.

We solve different issues.

> 5) The non-profit stuff should be manage by any institution like the
> Software Freedom Conservancy or alike,
> that's for sure.

+1
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 14 09:36:54 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:36:54 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 09:25:27 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

> Hello,
>
> Is this all we need to start making these packages compatible with
> ARM? Do we need to do anything else?

Yes.

Just pay attention of the licenses and licenses of each dependencies.

And space on the server for ARM port which certainly need to be set.

That settings should be report on the wiki for next port support.

Then we will need hackers with ARMv7 board to build.

But that will not be enough for good robotics support, we will need to
free ROS which is the big part in fact.

Have a look to ros.org

a Parabola GNU / Linux-libre + ROS will be fully free robotics
solution.

And that will be the first in the FSF world!


Does the Server as it will support the stuff?


> When should we start the repo?

That is the question ... Who fill ok the set the repo to load that
project? (That have to be wikify)

When could we realease our first Parabola GNU / Linux-libre ARM iso?
ASAP! (That have to be wikify too)


Why wikify things? Because next generation need to know the how it have
been be done.


<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Sun Dec 14 09:50:15 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 09:50:15 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net>
 <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net>
 <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
 <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256


> Yes.
> 
> Just pay attention of the licenses and licenses of each 
> dependencies.

The only thing that worries me is that when the package says that the
license is 'custom' so you never know if it is a free software license
or not except if you research.

> And space on the server for ARM port which certainly need to be 
> set.
> 
> That settings should be report on the wiki for next port support.
> 

> Then we will need hackers with ARMv7 board to build.

Would we be able to cross-compile? I don't have a board at the moment
but getting one soon, hopefully.

> But that will not be enough for good robotics support, we will
> need to free ROS which is the big part in fact.
> 
> Have a look to ros.org
> 
> a Parabola GNU / Linux-libre + ROS will be fully free robotics 
> solution.
> 
> And that will be the first in the FSF world!

Amazing! I looked at ROS before when I searched for robots made on the
BeagleBone and I was amazed at how complex it is, but how simple it
presents it.

I also saw that it has experimental Arch GNU/Linux support.
http://wiki.ros.org/indigo/Installation/Arch

Maybe that can help?
> 
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 14 10:03:33 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:03:33 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 09:50:15 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

>> Yes.
>> 
>> Just pay attention of the licenses and licenses of each 
>> dependencies.
>
> The only thing that worries me is that when the package says that the
> license is 'custom' so you never know if it is a free software license
> or not except if you research.

You must not pay attention of what the PKGBUILD says, but you must pay
attention of what the license in the source code say.

>> And space on the server for ARM port which certainly need to be 
>> set.
>> 
>> That settings should be report on the wiki for next port support.
>> 
>
>> Then we will need hackers with ARMv7 board to build.
>
> Would we be able to cross-compile? I don't have a board at the moment
> but getting one soon, hopefully.

I have heard that is possible to do that for i686 from x86_64 ... maybe
it is possible to ARMv7h too.

>> But that will not be enough for good robotics support, we will
>> need to free ROS which is the big part in fact.
>> 
>> Have a look to ros.org
>> 
>> a Parabola GNU / Linux-libre + ROS will be fully free robotics 
>> solution.
>> 
>> And that will be the first in the FSF world!
>
> Amazing! I looked at ROS before when I searched for robots made on the
> BeagleBone and I was amazed at how complex it is, but how simple it
> presents it.
>
> I also saw that it has experimental Arch GNU/Linux support.
> http://wiki.ros.org/indigo/Installation/Arch
>
> Maybe that can help?

AFAIK ROS works on Archlinux ARM (I have tested it on a BBB)


<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Sun Dec 14 11:39:43 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:39:43 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net>
 <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net>
 <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
 <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

So should we start? I think we need to get more people to help us.

I will attempt to cross-compile on my machine using distcc.
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=hMFL
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 14 11:57:53 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:57:53 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:39:43 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

> So should we start? I think we need to get more people to help us.
>
> I will attempt to cross-compile on my machine using distcc.

<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>



At this time, I do not know:

. How to set up the servers to make the ports available
from Archlinux ARM + a pcr to have some more packages available + a ROS
repo to push all ROS stuff

. If the servers can support that data it represent

. How to build the iso

At the time someone can do that if we are just 2 to compile the stuff
that could be a good point to start the job.

Then ASAP we will have start that and ASAP we will have a working ISO
other hackers should join.

As I told you, if we realize that, that will be the first fully free
solution in robotics and more like all the internet of things, which
represent a big interest in many ways. 

fauno, mtjm, others (who are interested by an ARM port for Parabola),
does that represent a lot to setup the things and do you think the
servers could support the charge?

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 14 12:09:25 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 13:09:25 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:57:53 +0100")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>

aurelien at hackers.camp (Aur?lien DESBRI?RES) writes:

> Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:
>
>> So should we start? I think we need to get more people to help us.
>>
>> I will attempt to cross-compile on my machine using distcc.
>
> <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>
>
>
>
> At this time, I do not know:
>
> . How to set up the servers to make the ports available
> from Archlinux ARM + a pcr to have some more packages available + a ROS
> repo to push all ROS stuff
>
> . If the servers can support that data it represent
>
> . How to build the iso
>
> At the time someone can do that if we are just 2 to compile the stuff
> that could be a good point to start the job.
>
> Then ASAP we will have start that and ASAP we will have a working ISO
> other hackers should join.
>
> As I told you, if we realize that, that will be the first fully free
> solution in robotics and more like all the internet of things, which
> represent a big interest in many ways. 
>
> fauno, mtjm, others (who are interested by an ARM port for Parabola),
> does that represent a lot to setup the things and do you think the
> servers could support the charge?
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Here start the things!

https://labs.parabola.nu/projects/arm-port

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Sun Dec 14 13:11:01 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 13:11:01 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net>
 <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net>
 <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
 <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
 <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256


Using this guide:
http://archlinuxarm.org/developers/distcc-cross-compiling

I am configuring crosstool-ng, but it is already half an hour and it
still has not built gcc.

I will reply when I get it done.
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=qeBX
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 14 15:26:55 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 16:26:55 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 13:11:01 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

> Using this guide:
> http://archlinuxarm.org/developers/distcc-cross-compiling
>
> I am configuring crosstool-ng, but it is already half an hour and it
> still has not built gcc.
>
> I will reply when I get it done.
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Ok.

Do not forget to bring your experience back to the wiki ;-)

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Sun Dec 14 18:00:14 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 18:00:14 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net>
 <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net>
 <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
 <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
 <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>	<87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Right, I am trying to modify the linux-libre PKGBUILD, but I was
wandering if I would need any patches to get it to work.

I saw that mips needed a patch so maybe ARM needs it too?

Can you check if I am doing this correctly?

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-------------- next part --------------
 
pkgbase=linux-libre         # Build stock "" kernel
_pkgbasever=3.17-gnu
_pkgver=3.17.6-gnu

_replacesarchkernel=('linux%') # '%' gets replaced with _kernelname
_replacesoldkernels=('kernel26%' 'kernel26-libre%') # '%' gets replaced with _kernelname
_replacesoldmodules=('linux-libre%-kmod-alx') # '%' gets replaced with _kernelname

_srcname=linux-${_pkgbasever%-*}
_archpkgver=${_pkgver%-*}
pkgver=${_pkgver//-/_}
pkgrel=1
arch=('i686' 'x86_64' 'mips64el' 'armv7h')
url="http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/"
license=('GPL2')
makedepends=('xmlto' 'docbook-xsl' 'kmod' 'inetutils' 'bc')
options=('!strip')
source=("http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/releases/${_pkgbasever}/linux-libre-${_pkgbasever}.tar.xz"
        "http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/releases/${_pkgbasever}/linux-libre-${_pkgbasever}.tar.xz.sign"
        "http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/releases/${_pkgver}/patch-${_pkgbasever}-${_pkgver}.xz"
        "http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/releases/${_pkgver}/patch-${_pkgbasever}-${_pkgver}.xz.sign"
        # the main kernel config files
        'config.i686' 'config.x86_64' 'config.mips64el'
        # standard config files for mkinitcpio ramdisk
        'linux.preset'
        'logo_linux_'{clut224.ppm,vga16.ppm,mono.pbm}
        'change-default-console-loglevel.patch'
        # loongson-community patch: http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/lemote/gnewsense/pool/debuginfo/
        '3.17-rc6-5358c5e4e5-loongson-community.patch')
sha256sums=('3b2e9a862ada390a318f95d5a436d07dd32664434f4f383e27fd5cc0b4f41f0e'
            'SKIP'
            'df2553ec61d83e0b35098efe8676573f01ac217f06b17fb515dd32f6b99148f1'
            'SKIP'
            '42aaa873bb27d6f7c445be68ba35bc629f7c9b63100edc7f5c4f3f27ddb90af2'
            'f354c832b958a3be3072eb662f0b76ca2f9f40907d37104021987b7426090101'
            '078d37de38250d23df6e008b380bba625fdb21365bfa7ba805b9105b101543b4'
            'f0d90e756f14533ee67afda280500511a62465b4f76adcc5effa95a40045179c'
            '074b67818582874146c389c029bc43648d145891a27e47aa2c5c42d3571f0264'
            '2e87a8ec1cc0c91938cac24992d8a3d4362b3e9d939767e4c9d2ec8e6d969d53'
            'f67f60a30bcf2e9a2ba88ad97cace308da7a7f94919bb95c3dc030f5885a8015'
            '1256b241cd477b265a3c2d64bdc19ffe3c9bbcee82ea3994c590c2c76e767d99'
            'be4d355129b1027d73ef52f745beeffe1157879412794f605ab41fe66db7cc6c')

_kernelname=${pkgbase#linux-libre}
_replacesarchkernel=("${_replacesarchkernel[@]/\%/${_kernelname}}")
_replacesoldkernels=("${_replacesoldkernels[@]/\%/${_kernelname}}")
_replacesoldmodules=("${_replacesoldmodules[@]/\%/${_kernelname}}")

case "$CARCH" in
  i686|x86_64) KARCH=x86;;
  mips64el) KARCH=mips;;
  armv7h) KARCH=arm;;
esac

From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 14 18:13:38 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 19:13:38 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 18:00:14 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87zjaqp0a5.fsf@unicorn.home>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

> Right, I am trying to modify the linux-libre PKGBUILD, but I was
> wandering if I would need any patches to get it to work.
>
> I saw that mips needed a patch so maybe ARM needs it too?
>
> Can you check if I am doing this correctly?

<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

Here is the PKGBUILD of linux-libre, maybe it could help you.

Contact the maintainer could and join to de mailing list could help you
to.

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-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp

From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Sun Dec 14 18:22:30 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 18:22:30 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net>
 <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net>
 <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
 <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>	<548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
 <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <548DD566.9050607@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

The thing is that my PKGBUILD is a modified version of the linux-libre
PKGBUILD.

I will attempt to contact the maintainer through email.

Not sure why, but at first I messed around with the source and just
wasted my time, and after some research I sort of know how to do it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2

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KIUBaYxCkALKbdjWdEmczWaTlx7WBcWOXp9gkvp0PR0oP1uDhDPfLslSKbnZuLvf
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dOx+QAE+5vy2OG480L4T/VkVAqcWTOFdh9tZXWf2Nrypy9dy/dZsqDsnT/w1UYHs
uJw3hE0nuVQEBlafnFHZOQ7DHRDn1Zsx2MwzNuUPgvIJ2Ws39ugikUKwAtHD6uya
XIyFI4I5tN8nQJs8nwUc+sbnGuK0vCN1e58n4IpxeuQOheLVAxYFPs1RIbak43yY
LJ+JCOczaCDof3SqkCEp59OtIv/JrJNDlzj0PZbkYAQ2TIUi+ZxdGDUd12wTV75j
Ao/30SVhNSpzcUxPtfFE
=8ea7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Sun Dec 14 20:56:16 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 21:56:16 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:57:53 +0100")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <874msy54sv.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> . How to set up the servers to make the ports available
> from Archlinux ARM + a pcr to have some more packages available + a ROS
> repo to push all ROS stuff

Don't.  Design how to make all Arch core, extra and community PKGBUILDs
(without ones mentioned in blacklist.txt) available in a git repo,
merged with Parabola's abslibre.git and (similarly filtered)
archlinuxarm.org repo.

> Then ASAP we will have start that and ASAP we will have a working ISO
> other hackers should join.

We never had an ISO for mips64el.  How do you install distros on your
ARM computers?
-------------- next part --------------
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Sun Dec 14 20:58:25 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 21:58:25 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Sun, 14 Dec 2014 18:00:14 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87zjaq3q4u.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> Right, I am trying to modify the linux-libre PKGBUILD, but I was
> wandering if I would need any patches to get it to work.

Start by finding what exact kernel tree your board needs?  E.g. for
AllWinner SoCs there is linux-sunxi.org (which branch?), other boards
have their own.

I think there is no need to adapt the PKGBUILD until we have a working
deblobbed kernel built from source.
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Mon Dec 15 06:32:03 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:32:03 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <874msy54sv.fsf@mtjm.eu> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82o?=
 =?utf-8?Q?wski=22's?= message of "Sun,
 14 Dec 2014 21:56:16 +0100")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <874msy54sv.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <87vbldpgnw.fsf@unicorn.home>

mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:

>> . How to set up the servers to make the ports available
>> from Archlinux ARM + a pcr to have some more packages available + a ROS
>> repo to push all ROS stuff
>
> Don't.  Design how to make all Arch core, extra and community PKGBUILDs
> (without ones mentioned in blacklist.txt) available in a git repo,
> merged with Parabola's abslibre.git and (similarly filtered)
> archlinuxarm.org repo.
>
>> Then ASAP we will have start that and ASAP we will have a working ISO
>> other hackers should join.
>
> We never had an ISO for mips64el.  How do you install distros on your
> ARM computers?

with an img

<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>


-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Mon Dec 15 06:42:02 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:42:02 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87vbldpgnw.fsf@unicorn.home> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:32:03 +0100")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <874msy54sv.fsf@mtjm.eu> <87vbldpgnw.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87r3w1pg79.fsf@unicorn.home>

aurelien at hackers.camp (Aur?lien DESBRI?RES) writes:

> mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:
>
>>> . How to set up the servers to make the ports available
>>> from Archlinux ARM + a pcr to have some more packages available + a ROS
>>> repo to push all ROS stuff
>>
>> Don't.  Design how to make all Arch core, extra and community PKGBUILDs
>> (without ones mentioned in blacklist.txt) available in a git repo,
>> merged with Parabola's abslibre.git and (similarly filtered)
>> archlinuxarm.org repo.
>>
>>> Then ASAP we will have start that and ASAP we will have a working ISO
>>> other hackers should join.
>>
>> We never had an ISO for mips64el.  How do you install distros on your
>> ARM computers?
>
> with an img
>

https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/618 updated

<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Mon Dec 15 07:57:07 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:57:07 +0100
Subject: [Dev] The future of mobile computing.
In-Reply-To: <548E9085.2030507@platen-software.de> (Tobias Platen's message of
 "Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:40:53 +0100")
References: <CAMwaQAKZ0RR_TUAeHV-a=qvZkrd_ebo1dhs2wzp9fCx2fkyC2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <8661djhnfs.fsf@invergo.net> <87tx131zfv.fsf@galex-713.eu>
 <20141213103240.GE2901@alien.local>
 <548E9085.2030507@platen-software.de>
Message-ID: <87a92ppcq4.fsf@unicorn.home>

Tobias Platen <tobias at platen-software.de> writes:

> There is also triangulation which makes it possible to track a cell
> phone, even if it ran free modem firmware.
>
> On 13.12.2014 11:32, Olaf Buddenhagen wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 01:06:44PM +0100, Garreau, Alexandre wrote:
>>
>>> Replicant is supported by only some phones, not always completely, and
>>> I know only one or two phones are really acceptable: others give to
>>> the detached and proprietary modem the control on CPU, RAM, IOs, etc.
>>> and hence is not secure (especially in the post-Snowden era: NSA can
>>> take the complete control of phone only by sending microwaves on the
>>> phone).
>> This is a somewhat academic threat IMHO: while it's certainly true that
>> such a hardware design could be used for spying in theory, I don't
>> believe it's realistic to do mass surveillance this way -- especially
>> when your device is running non-standard software. It could be used for
>> targetted attacks against high priority subjects -- but if you think you
>> might be among these, you shouldn't use mobile phones at all...
>>
>>> I mean, with free software, you???re getting a phone more secure than
>>> most of presidents, dictators and kings/queens on Earth, that???s
>>> amazing! :p If Merkel used that, she wouldn???t had made spying of
>>> German state possible x)
>> Actually, it was "only" her party phone that was snooped upon, which was
>> an ordinary off-the-shelf phone. The official "state" phone is a special
>> solution that uses an encrypted data channel for communication; and I'm
>> pretty sure the firmware can't be upgraded over the air...
>>
>> The attack on an ordinary GSM phone doesn't require any kind of access
>> to the actual phone. GSM voice connections do not allow end-to-end
>> encryption -- and the GSM protocol is so insecure, that anyone with the
>> right equipment can snoop upon any phone in the same cell. (Or even
>> beyond? Don't remember the details...) Also, any GSM call can be snooped
>> upon if the attacker has access to the backbone network, which was
>> probably the case here.
>>
>> Free software on your phone won't save you from this -- even if you had
>> free modem firmware.
>>
>> -antrik-
>>
>
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

For information Parabola is *trying to* start to works on a fully free
port for ARM.

Like every type of project we need more hackers!

So you are all welcome to join.

The goal is to make ASAP a fully free ARM port and next a fully free ROS
that will works with it.

That mean, fully free solution for the internet of things and robotics.

https://lists.parabola.nu/pipermail/dev/2014-December/002594.html


-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From isacdaavid at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 08:14:23 2014
From: isacdaavid at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Isaac_David_Reyes_Gonz=C3=A1lez?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 02:14:23 -0600
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87zjaq3q4u.fsf@mtjm.eu>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net>
 <87zjaq3q4u.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <CAOPS0LxcRt2zV1_mUUZ48-NvvAn0xVwwNkzL4_FO+ectzkUFvQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm excited to see real efforts for a wholly free ARM distro going on,
something higher than Debian I mean. There are far more ARM CPUs than x86
ones nowadays, and while not all of them will be able to work with free
software a substantial proportion will. Those ought to be covered. This is
an increasingly important computing platform dominated by GNU+Linux,
Android/Linux and other free-software-based operating systems; therefore
the success of ARM indirectly is the success of free software for the
masses too.

Ok, so here I will be trying to address some issues that I think went
overlooked before the thread forked:

>We need some research before packaging anything:
>
>- how archlinuxarm.org works (e.g. crossbuilding) and what we should use
>  from them?

Maybe everything that is already libre or can be repackaged to meet the
standards, as you do with normal Arch I guess. The big problem with ArchARM
is the myriad of kernels they support. See
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1227684#p1227684 for a light
discussion on merging Arch with ArchARM, developers from both camps joined
and discussed kernel proliferation. I just counted 48 from ArchARM's [core]
repo but we may not need to support them all. The details can be found on
my attatchment and I hope this introductory research will help Parabola
decide what kernels to use (deblobbed) from ArchARM if any. I could add
this info somewhere in the wiki during the following days if you like it.
It would be nice to do the same for u-boot.


>- what devices we want to support: popular here, sufficiently free and
>  also something fast for building packages (some certainly don't
>  support cross-compiling and native builds are a good way of finding
>  bugs); will we compile packages for ARMv7 only?
>
>- what kernels will we use?  can we avoid deblobbing and releasing a
>  different kernel tree for each board?
>
>- u-boot trees; there are existing deblobbing projects for specific
>  boards
>
>- what's missing in the development tools that we used for mips64el?
Micha? Mas?owski clearly knows what he says. This is the way to go
>We should aim for compiling all packages

Even packages that don't need repackaging? Is this what you do with x86
Arch?

>Do you know any fast multicore boards with much RAM and a SATA port that
>would work for native builds?  I think i.MX6 Quad and Tegra K1 are the
>fastest SoCs that work without known to me bootloader blobs (Samsung
>Exynos is not ok).

All in all Novena board is a good candidate: iMX6 Quadcore, 4 GiB in RAM,
works without nonfree software, in fact there's just a couple trivial blobs
keeping it from being FSF-endorseable at the time, no treacherous computing
of course and unlike many board developers the Novena people is working
hard to collaborate upstream and keep their software updated. Linaro was
interested in getting some Novenas and use them to build software natively.
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From ingegnue at riseup.net  Mon Dec 15 16:19:22 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:19:22 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <CAOPS0LxcRt2zV1_mUUZ48-NvvAn0xVwwNkzL4_FO+ectzkUFvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net>
 <87zjaq3q4u.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <CAOPS0LxcRt2zV1_mUUZ48-NvvAn0xVwwNkzL4_FO+ectzkUFvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A07C1D64-15B5-4AF2-AE48-00381C661BA2@riseup.net>

Ok, so from that Arch thread:?"If the boards are not yet standardized enough that the kernel can be easily used across multiple boards (the great majority, really)"

And this post, in full: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1248427#p1248427

With that in mind...

FWIW if you search "gpl violations arm" you'll get a lot of results. For example, Allwinner, member of Linaro... I think there may be freedom issues that would narrow down what we would "officially" support.

http://linux-sunxi.org/GPL_Violations
^The above scared me away from Allwinner and made me look at Linaro skeptically.
http://www.itworld.com/article/2741085/mobile/linux-arm-support--a-hot-mess--an-ugly-clean-up.html
^That sounds ugly...

As far as I see, GTA04, BeagleBone Black and Novena are easily the freest ARM systems I've found, so I would prioritize supporting them over, for example, anything with Allwinner in it (Cubieboard), if we have to choose between boards. I may get a BeagleBone myself and help with this port...  

The nightmare scenario in my mind would be the ARM manufacturers sneaking in nonfree features to the kernel in those 70,000 lines of code per pull. But if we have the Linux-libre kernel, then maybe that possibility would be minimized, and more so if we avoid supporting the manufacturers that violate the GPL.

Not an expert by any means, but I hope this info is of some use.



On December 15, 2014 3:14:23 AM EST, "Isaac David Reyes Gonz?lez" <isacdaavid at gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm excited to see real efforts for a wholly free ARM distro going on,
>something higher than Debian I mean. There are far more ARM CPUs than
>x86
>ones nowadays, and while not all of them will be able to work with free
>software a substantial proportion will. Those ought to be covered. This
>is
>an increasingly important computing platform dominated by GNU+Linux,
>Android/Linux and other free-software-based operating systems;
>therefore
>the success of ARM indirectly is the success of free software for the
>masses too.
>
>Ok, so here I will be trying to address some issues that I think went
>overlooked before the thread forked:
>
>>We need some research before packaging anything:
>>
>>- how archlinuxarm.org works (e.g. crossbuilding) and what we should
>use
>>  from them?
>
>Maybe everything that is already libre or can be repackaged to meet the
>standards, as you do with normal Arch I guess. The big problem with
>ArchARM
>is the myriad of kernels they support. See
>https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1227684#p1227684 for a
>light
>discussion on merging Arch with ArchARM, developers from both camps
>joined
>and discussed kernel proliferation. I just counted 48 from ArchARM's
>[core]
>repo but we may not need to support them all. The details can be found
>on
>my attatchment and I hope this introductory research will help Parabola
>decide what kernels to use (deblobbed) from ArchARM if any. I could add
>this info somewhere in the wiki during the following days if you like
>it.
>It would be nice to do the same for u-boot.
>
>
>>- what devices we want to support: popular here, sufficiently free and
>>  also something fast for building packages (some certainly don't
>>  support cross-compiling and native builds are a good way of finding
>>  bugs); will we compile packages for ARMv7 only?
>>
>>- what kernels will we use?  can we avoid deblobbing and releasing a
>>  different kernel tree for each board?
>>
>>- u-boot trees; there are existing deblobbing projects for specific
>>  boards
>>
>>- what's missing in the development tools that we used for mips64el?
>Micha? Mas?owski clearly knows what he says. This is the way to go
>>We should aim for compiling all packages
>
>Even packages that don't need repackaging? Is this what you do with x86
>Arch?
>
>>Do you know any fast multicore boards with much RAM and a SATA port
>that
>>would work for native builds?  I think i.MX6 Quad and Tegra K1 are the
>>fastest SoCs that work without known to me bootloader blobs (Samsung
>>Exynos is not ok).
>
>All in all Novena board is a good candidate: iMX6 Quadcore, 4 GiB in
>RAM,
>works without nonfree software, in fact there's just a couple trivial
>blobs
>keeping it from being FSF-endorseable at the time, no treacherous
>computing
>of course and unlike many board developers the Novena people is working
>hard to collaborate upstream and keep their software updated. Linaro
>was
>interested in getting some Novenas and use them to build software
>natively.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Dev mailing list
>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev



From pjhanzlik at openmailbox.org  Mon Dec 15 19:56:58 2014
From: pjhanzlik at openmailbox.org (Paul Hanzlik)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:56:58 -0600
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <0A84584E-794A-403A-8D1B-408AE2E4EF5B@openmailbox.org>
References: <0A84584E-794A-403A-8D1B-408AE2E4EF5B@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <F6A593CD-7242-42B8-B9C0-6A8A9F44AE3C@openmailbox.org>




-------- Original Message --------
From: Paul Hanzlik <pjhanzlik at openmailbox.org>
Sent: December 15, 2014 1:54:37 PM CST
To: ingegnue <ingegnue at riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port

Hi everyone, according to this link posted below the radxa rock pro looks like a good device to port Parabola onto.  Does anyone actually know how free that hardware is?

regards,
Paul Hanzlik

Source:  https://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox/TargetedHardware

On December 15, 2014 10:19:22 AM CST, ingegnue <ingegnue at riseup.net> wrote:
>Ok, so from that Arch thread:?"If the boards are not yet standardized
>enough that the kernel can be easily used across multiple boards (the
>great majority, really)"
>
>And this post, in full:
>https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1248427#p1248427
>
>With that in mind...
>
>FWIW if you search "gpl violations arm" you'll get a lot of results.
>For example, Allwinner, member of Linaro... I think there may be
>freedom issues that would narrow down what we would "officially"
>support.
>
>http://linux-sunxi.org/GPL_Violations
>^The above scared me away from Allwinner and made me look at Linaro
>skeptically.
>http://www.itworld.com/article/2741085/mobile/linux-arm-support--a-hot-mess--an-ugly-clean-up.html
>^That sounds ugly...
>
>As far as I see, GTA04, BeagleBone Black and Novena are easily the
>freest ARM systems I've found, so I would prioritize supporting them
>over, for example, anything with Allwinner in it (Cubieboard), if we
>have to choose between boards. I may get a BeagleBone myself and help
>with this port...  
>
>The nightmare scenario in my mind would be the ARM manufacturers
>sneaking in nonfree features to the kernel in those 70,000 lines of
>code per pull. But if we have the Linux-libre kernel, then maybe that
>possibility would be minimized, and more so if we avoid supporting the
>manufacturers that violate the GPL.
>
>Not an expert by any means, but I hope this info is of some use.
>
>
>
>On December 15, 2014 3:14:23 AM EST, "Isaac David Reyes Gonz?lez"
><isacdaavid at gmail.com> wrote:
>>I'm excited to see real efforts for a wholly free ARM distro going on,
>>something higher than Debian I mean. There are far more ARM CPUs than
>>x86
>>ones nowadays, and while not all of them will be able to work with
>free
>>software a substantial proportion will. Those ought to be covered.
>This
>>is
>>an increasingly important computing platform dominated by GNU+Linux,
>>Android/Linux and other free-software-based operating systems;
>>therefore
>>the success of ARM indirectly is the success of free software for the
>>masses too.
>>
>>Ok, so here I will be trying to address some issues that I think went
>>overlooked before the thread forked:
>>
>>>We need some research before packaging anything:
>>>
>>>- how archlinuxarm.org works (e.g. crossbuilding) and what we should
>>use
>>>  from them?
>>
>>Maybe everything that is already libre or can be repackaged to meet
>the
>>standards, as you do with normal Arch I guess. The big problem with
>>ArchARM
>>is the myriad of kernels they support. See
>>https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1227684#p1227684 for a
>>light
>>discussion on merging Arch with ArchARM, developers from both camps
>>joined
>>and discussed kernel proliferation. I just counted 48 from ArchARM's
>>[core]
>>repo but we may not need to support them all. The details can be found
>>on
>>my attatchment and I hope this introductory research will help
>Parabola
>>decide what kernels to use (deblobbed) from ArchARM if any. I could
>add
>>this info somewhere in the wiki during the following days if you like
>>it.
>>It would be nice to do the same for u-boot.
>>
>>
>>>- what devices we want to support: popular here, sufficiently free
>and
>>>  also something fast for building packages (some certainly don't
>>>  support cross-compiling and native builds are a good way of finding
>>>  bugs); will we compile packages for ARMv7 only?
>>>
>>>- what kernels will we use?  can we avoid deblobbing and releasing a
>>>  different kernel tree for each board?
>>>
>>>- u-boot trees; there are existing deblobbing projects for specific
>>>  boards
>>>
>>>- what's missing in the development tools that we used for mips64el?
>>Micha? Mas?owski clearly knows what he says. This is the way to go
>>>We should aim for compiling all packages
>>
>>Even packages that don't need repackaging? Is this what you do with
>x86
>>Arch?
>>
>>>Do you know any fast multicore boards with much RAM and a SATA port
>>that
>>>would work for native builds?  I think i.MX6 Quad and Tegra K1 are
>the
>>>fastest SoCs that work without known to me bootloader blobs (Samsung
>>>Exynos is not ok).
>>
>>All in all Novena board is a good candidate: iMX6 Quadcore, 4 GiB in
>>RAM,
>>works without nonfree software, in fact there's just a couple trivial
>>blobs
>>keeping it from being FSF-endorseable at the time, no treacherous
>>computing
>>of course and unlike many board developers the Novena people is
>working
>>hard to collaborate upstream and keep their software updated. Linaro
>>was
>>interested in getting some Novenas and use them to build software
>>natively.
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Dev mailing list
>>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
>_______________________________________________
>Dev mailing list
>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Mon Dec 15 20:30:37 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 21:30:37 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <A07C1D64-15B5-4AF2-AE48-00381C661BA2@riseup.net>
 (ingegnue@riseup.net's message of "Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:19:22 +0000")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net>
 <87zjaq3q4u.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <CAOPS0LxcRt2zV1_mUUZ48-NvvAn0xVwwNkzL4_FO+ectzkUFvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A07C1D64-15B5-4AF2-AE48-00381C661BA2@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <87lhm8u042.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> As far as I see, GTA04, BeagleBone Black and Novena are easily the
> freest ARM systems I've found, so I would prioritize supporting them
> over, for example, anything with Allwinner in it (Cubieboard), if we
> have to choose between boards. I may get a BeagleBone myself and help
> with this port...

Unless there are SoC manufacturers who care about user's freedom, there
are only accidentally compatible boards.  Some Allwinner SoCs use blobs
only for optional features (e.g. the Mali GPU: with a reverse
engineering project, unlike PowerVR used in OMAPs and other Allwinner
SoCs) and have a community-supported kernel distro.

>>Maybe everything that is already libre or can be repackaged to meet the
>>standards, as you do with normal Arch I guess. The big problem with
>>ArchARM
>>is the myriad of kernels they support. See
>>https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1227684#p1227684 for a
>>light
>>discussion on merging Arch with ArchARM, developers from both camps
>>joined
>>and discussed kernel proliferation. I just counted 48 from ArchARM's
>>[core]
>>repo but we may not need to support them all. The details can be found
>>on
>>my attatchment and I hope this introductory research will help Parabola
>>decide what kernels to use (deblobbed) from ArchARM if any. I could add
>>this info somewhere in the wiki during the following days if you like
>>it.
>>It would be nice to do the same for u-boot.

We might need one binary package per SoC and only several source trees.
I think we should start from what boards we have and what we can easily
buy that will work with fully free software (maybe without some
features).

I know about several wikis documenting such things, I think we shouldn't
duplicate that work.  Report an issue for each board that you have or
want to develop Parabola for?

>>>We should aim for compiling all packages
>>
>>Even packages that don't need repackaging? Is this what you do with x86
>>Arch?

We don't on x86, while we want to change this.

>>All in all Novena board is a good candidate: iMX6 Quadcore, 4 GiB in
>>RAM,
>>works without nonfree software, in fact there's just a couple trivial
>>blobs
>>keeping it from being FSF-endorseable at the time, no treacherous
>>computing
>>of course and unlike many board developers the Novena people is working
>>hard to collaborate upstream and keep their software updated. Linaro
>>was
>>interested in getting some Novenas and use them to build software
>>natively.

They look good (while expensive: low volume, extra features and support
for important free software projects like etna_viv).
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From isacdaavid at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 05:35:45 2014
From: isacdaavid at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Isaac_David_Reyes_Gonz=C3=A1lez?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:35:45 -0600
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <87lhm8u042.fsf@mtjm.eu>
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net>
 <87zjaq3q4u.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <CAOPS0LxcRt2zV1_mUUZ48-NvvAn0xVwwNkzL4_FO+ectzkUFvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A07C1D64-15B5-4AF2-AE48-00381C661BA2@riseup.net>
 <87lhm8u042.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <CAOPS0Ly_J5N2RpD+=43nmawJXgOq8a8vBQMpsFPKDAF+vsYrjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Micha? Mas?owski <mtjm at mtjm.eu> wrote:
>
>
> I know about several wikis documenting such things
>
Would you share please? I'm eager to read.
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From hellekin at gnu.org  Wed Dec 17 02:16:04 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 23:16:04 -0300
Subject: [Dev] SFC
Message-ID: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

A friend of mine suggested that Parabola could join the
http://sfconservancy.org/ to benefit from their infrastructure and help.

What do you think?

==
hk
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From hellekin at gnu.org  Wed Dec 17 03:57:06 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 00:57:06 -0300
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/16/2014 11:16 PM, hellekin wrote:
> A friend of mine suggested that Parabola could join the 
> http://sfconservancy.org/ to benefit from their infrastructure and
> help.
> 
*** Wanted to add, on my friend's recommendation as well, another
non-profit that can help: http://spi-inc.org/

> What do you think?
> 
> == hk

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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Wed Dec 17 06:41:33 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 07:41:33 +0100
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Wed,
 17 Dec 2014 00:57:06 -0300")
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home>

hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:

> On 12/16/2014 11:16 PM, hellekin wrote:
>> A friend of mine suggested that Parabola could join the 
>> http://sfconservancy.org/ to benefit from their infrastructure and
>> help.
>> 
> *** Wanted to add, on my friend's recommendation as well, another
> non-profit that can help: http://spi-inc.org/
>
>> What do you think?
>> 
>> == hk
>

Is there a vote about that change in the distro or it goes like that?


<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From hellekin at gnu.org  Wed Dec 17 18:41:00 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:41:00 -0300
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/17/2014 03:41 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> Is there a vote about that change in the distro or it goes like that?
>
*** What is wrong with you Aur?lien?  It's a *suggestion*.  By
definition it's open for discussion.

==
hk

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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Wed Dec 17 18:46:03 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 19:46:03 +0100
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Wed,
 17 Dec 2014 15:41:00 -0300")
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home>

hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:

> On 12/17/2014 03:41 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> Is there a vote about that change in the distro or it goes like that?
>>
> *** What is wrong with you Aur?lien?  It's a *suggestion*.  By
> definition it's open for discussion.
>
> ==
> hk
>

It's a question, is that wrong to ask questions?


<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From hellekin at gnu.org  Wed Dec 17 19:28:59 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 16:28:59 -0300
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org>
 <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>	<87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org> <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/17/2014 03:46 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> It's a question, is that wrong to ask questions?
>
*** No it's not.  But it's wrong to frame an open discussion into two
irrelevant options before it has even started.

==
hk

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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Wed Dec 17 20:10:05 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 21:10:05 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <CAOPS0Ly_J5N2RpD+=43nmawJXgOq8a8vBQMpsFPKDAF+vsYrjA@mail.gmail.com>
 ("Isaac David Reyes \=\?utf-8\?Q\?Gonz\=C3\=A1lez\=22's\?\= message of "Mon,
 15 Dec 2014 23:35:45 -0600")
References: <548B71AF.6030103@cryptolab.net> <87a92srpdg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548C9DC6.5070706@cryptolab.net> <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net> <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <548DD02E.2070401@cryptolab.net>
 <87zjaq3q4u.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <CAOPS0LxcRt2zV1_mUUZ48-NvvAn0xVwwNkzL4_FO+ectzkUFvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A07C1D64-15B5-4AF2-AE48-00381C661BA2@riseup.net>
 <87lhm8u042.fsf@mtjm.eu>
 <CAOPS0Ly_J5N2RpD+=43nmawJXgOq8a8vBQMpsFPKDAF+vsYrjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87r3vyjaw2.fsf@mtjm.eu>

>     I know about several wikis documenting such things
>     
>
> Would you share please? I'm eager to read.

The ones that I remember:

- http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware/Laptops_Comparison/Partially_free_laptops
  mentions the Samsung Exynos Chromebook, it (or other laptops
  comparison subpages) could get info on Tegra Chromebooks
- http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware/Tablet has a list of SoCs
- http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware/Single_Board_Computers
- http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware has some very old subpages
  which aimed to collect such info
- https://www.h-node.org/ no ARM data, while on-topic there
- http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/boards/27 mostly
  focused on phones, with several entries for SBCs

Paul Kocialkowski of the Replicant project is making a new wiki about
SBCs, it's not published yet.
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From lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de  Wed Dec 17 21:08:07 2014
From: lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de (Mono)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 22:08:07 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
 <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
 <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>

> > I am configuring crosstool-ng, but it is already half an hour and it
> > still has not built gcc.
> >
> > I will reply when I get it done.
> Ok.
> 
> Do not forget to bring your experience back to the wiki ;-)

I added a cross-compiler to https://labs.parabola.nu/projects/arm-port/wiki which I use for compiling things for beaglebone black on a x86_64 parabola machine. Maybe it could work for you too?

best regards, Mono


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Wed Dec 17 21:27:36 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 22:27:36 +0100
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Wed,
 17 Dec 2014 16:28:59 -0300")
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home>

hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:

> On 12/17/2014 03:46 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> It's a question, is that wrong to ask questions?
>>
> *** No it's not.  But it's wrong to frame an open discussion into two
> irrelevant options before it has even started.
>
> ==
> hk

The question was about money itself in the project. AFAIK
https://www.parabola.nu/donate/ we have started the project like that.

You and some people want to change that point, why not as the page says
"At the moment" so the things are not fixed.

But like for most of big decision of the distro we have vote and that
AFAIK.

Then, discuss how, for what, ... is another discussion, but it should be
fine to fix that point by vote, then make move the things in the right
way.

I understand that time is money, but Democracy important (from my
point of view) for the evolution of Humanity.

As I say approximatively like that in the channel and some should
certainly have a log somewhere ... I understand the importance and
interest that money could represent, from investement on project to
travel (some see interest on meeting (which is, I agree with that an
important point but maybe not the most important things to invest
first)) and that the most important from my point of view is that
"bounty" will change the distro itself and who join.

So it is why this change should be vote before going further in the
discussions.


(About your sentence, I would like some precision:

If you think that telling me "what is wrong with me" I respond you
directly, I do not wish, that Parabola fall in the hands of some people
that shout to me and ask me what is wrong with me. 

Maybe that type of sentence in your language have absolutly no
significance, but in my language and here on my island, it is what you
told to a guy before to put your fist on his face.

Since I think you are not this sort of guy, and my english is known to
be very bad from speach to translation, I suppose that in your country
that is just like asking what do you want to drink.

But please, I really like to know a bit more about that sentence.)


I am also a lumberjack, I love Nature, freedom and peace.


<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Wed Dec 17 22:02:16 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 22:02:16 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
References: <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
 <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
 <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
Message-ID: <5491FD68.3040003@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

> I added a cross-compiler to
https://labs.parabola.nu/projects/arm-port/wiki which I use for
compiling things for beaglebone black on a x86_64 parabola machine.
Maybe it could work for you too?

Thanks, I will definitely try it.

I have not managed to get crosstool to work for some reason, I just
got a lot of duplicates in my home directory for some reason.

I have halted progress over the past few days, since I am still
waiting to get my BeagleBone Black (should be there in a week or two)
but I will attempt to compile some packages if all goes well.

I have also noticed a git repository. I have cloned it and have
noticed that there are some packages. Exciting. (Also, the folders
look similar to the duplicates in my home folder. (Except they are
packages and not random files.(For example, If I had a file called
'waves.png' the copy would be called
'armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-waves.png')))


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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Wed Dec 17 22:52:48 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 19:52:48 -0300
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Aur?lien DESBRI?RES <aurelien at hackers.camp> writes:

> As I say approximatively like that in the channel and some should
> certainly have a log somewhere ... I understand the importance and
> interest that money could represent, from investement on project to
> travel (some see interest on meeting (which is, I agree with that an
> important point but maybe not the most important things to invest
> first)) and that the most important from my point of view is that
> "bounty" will change the distro itself and who join.
>
> So it is why this change should be vote before going further in the
> discussions.

i'm definitely opposed to paying bounties, but if some people could make
a living on working in parabola instead of working on something else
less fun, free and fulfilling i'd be more than happy and proud of this
project :)

so far it's been propposed that we'd need to be a non-profit or become
part of one (the ceata foundation, software freedom conservancy), is
everyone ok with that? since they're country based (romania, usa), how'd
it work for people not living there?

> Since I think you are not this sort of guy, and my english is known to
> be very bad from speach to translation, I suppose that in your country
> that is just like asking what do you want to drink.
>
> But please, I really like to know a bit more about that sentence.)
>

you're both french speakers i think! please stop before this discussion
scalates :)

>
>
> I am also a lumberjack, I love Nature, freedom and peace.
1>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lumberjack_Song :D

>
> <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

this is clearly not working :P

-- 
P)
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Thu Dec 18 06:17:46 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 07:17:46 +0100
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Nicol=C3=A1?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= Reynolds"'s message
 of "Wed, 17 Dec 2014 19:52:48 -0300")
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> so far it's been propposed that we'd need to be a non-profit or become
> part of one (the ceata foundation, software freedom conservancy), is
> everyone ok with that?

Yes.

> since they're country based (romania, usa), how'd
> it work for people not living there?

This might be an issue with payment methods: they have US-specific ones
and Paypal.  (It was an issue for Trisquel where US people could donate
only via Paypal.)
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Thu Dec 18 08:21:16 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 09:21:16 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <5491FD68.3040003@cryptolab.net> (Kuba Kukielka's message of
 "Wed, 17 Dec 2014 22:02:16 +0000")
References: <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
 <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
 <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
 <5491FD68.3040003@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <87vbl98j2b.fsf@unicorn.home>

Kuba Kukielka <kzer-za at cryptolab.net> writes:

>> I added a cross-compiler to
> https://labs.parabola.nu/projects/arm-port/wiki which I use for
> compiling things for beaglebone black on a x86_64 parabola machine.
> Maybe it could work for you too?
>
> Thanks, I will definitely try it.
>
> I have not managed to get crosstool to work for some reason, I just
> got a lot of duplicates in my home directory for some reason.
>
> I have halted progress over the past few days, since I am still
> waiting to get my BeagleBone Black (should be there in a week or two)
> but I will attempt to compile some packages if all goes well.
>
> I have also noticed a git repository. I have cloned it and have
> noticed that there are some packages. Exciting. (Also, the folders
> look similar to the duplicates in my home folder. (Except they are
> packages and not random files.(For example, If I had a file called
> 'waves.png' the copy would be called
> 'armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-waves.png')))
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

I bring your page to https://wiki.parabola.nu/Cross_compiler

Thanks for your help!

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp


From hahj87 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 15:19:11 2014
From: hahj87 at gmail.com (Joshua Haase)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 09:19:11 -0600
Subject: [Dev] Libre Computer
Message-ID: <87bnn1asuo.fsf@gmail.com>

In case you are interested, there is a crowd funded startup offering a
high end 100% libre laptop:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-laptop



From ingegnue at riseup.net  Thu Dec 18 16:05:27 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 16:05:27 +0000
Subject: [Dev] Libre Computer
In-Reply-To: <87bnn1asuo.fsf@gmail.com>
References: <87bnn1asuo.fsf@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <71637DDD-6FD7-4D83-99A0-FA25BC0F195B@riseup.net>

Looks very nice, although what confuses me is why they don't call it Trisquel instead of Purism GNU/Linux. Did the company just take the Trisquel distro and give it a new name??

Thinking now that maybe we should have an [Offtopic] or [Misc] list since this thread isn't related to the development of Parabola GNU/Linux.

On December 18, 2014 10:19:11 AM EST, Joshua Haase <hahj87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>In case you are interested, there is a crowd funded startup offering a
>high end 100% libre laptop:
>
>https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-laptop
>
>_______________________________________________
>Dev mailing list
>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev



From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Thu Dec 18 20:31:24 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 21:31:24 +0100
Subject: [Dev] Libre Computer
In-Reply-To: <87bnn1asuo.fsf@gmail.com> (Joshua Haase's message of "Thu, 18
 Dec 2014 09:19:11 -0600")
References: <87bnn1asuo.fsf@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87vbl8wvhf.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> In case you are interested, there is a crowd funded startup offering a
> high end 100% libre laptop:

Will we have "200% libre" for laptops with published boot firmware code
and "300% libre" for ones without signed Intel blobs?
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From tct at ceata.org  Thu Dec 18 20:36:25 2014
From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 22:36:25 +0200
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>

On 18.12.2014 08:17, Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
> On 18.12.2014 00:52, Nicol?s Reynolds wrote:
>> so far it's been propposed that we'd need to be a non-profit or become
>> part of one (the ceata foundation, software freedom conservancy), is
>> everyone ok with that?

> Yes.

I don't assume that all members are ok with that, but I can provide some
information which might help.

The most simple and at all time cost-efficient method is for a trusted
member to act as proxy for donations and another trusted member to act
as supervisor for the proxy. Donations (through bank transfer, PayPal,
Bitcoin etc.) would go in that proxy member's accounts. Then, the proxy
would transfer money to people working on Parabola as decided by a
Parabola informal committee or general assembly of all members. This way
Parabola project only loses money on transfer fees, no formal contract
fees (state taxes etc.) will be spent. When the volume of donations
becomes to big for a single person to handle them or not raise
suspicions from the bank (I hope the project comes to this point), so
when it doesn't scale anymore, you can decide to become a non-profit or
join an existing non-profit.

I strongly encourage projects to organize themselves as formal
organizations, so that they remain completely independent as a project,
but only if the project has trusted members willing to do the
bureaucratic work, be transparent in their work and prepare other
members to take their place if they can't do that for some time or at
all. This also means that the members who do the bureaucratic work will
have less time for development (technical contributions). Ideally
professionals would take care of the bureaucratic work, but this might
involve more costs than the actual development is paid for.

Finally, if joining as an autonomous project in an organization is the
way the project decides to go for, Funda?ia Ceata is willing to help
Parabola. From my point of view as free software activist, founder and
president of Ceata, Parabola should join a free software oriented
organization like Ceata. Both SFC and SPI host nonfree distributions.
And for those, you need to go through a process of applying, while with
Ceata we are coming to you to discuss directly and particularly for
Parabola.

Please let me know what you think. I am the founder and president of
Funda?ia Ceata.

-- 
Tiberiu C. Turbureanu
Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata
http://turbureanu.ro/contact

Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor?
?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri



From hellekin at gnu.org  Fri Dec 19 00:25:51 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 21:25:51 -0300
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu> <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
Message-ID: <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/18/2014 05:36 PM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote:
> 
> Finally, if joining as an autonomous project in an organization is the
> way the project decides to go for, Funda?ia Ceata is willing to help
> Parabola. From my point of view as free software activist, founder and
> president of Ceata, Parabola should join a free software oriented
> organization like Ceata. Both SFC and SPI host nonfree distributions.
>
*** Thank you for your generous offer, Tiberiu.

I didn't offer this suggestion for Parabola to "join" anything, but to
be able to accept transparent institutional support for taking care of
an expressed need to support full-time dedication to the project and/or
compensate people's work.

At any rate, I would recommend against *joining* anything.  I'd like to
see volunteer sponsors take care of part of the costs of maintenance of
the community, including some living costs of developers so that they
can spend more time on the project instead of having to work on
unrelated things--again, because that was an expressed need.

Anyway I think there are processes to be invented here, especially to
keep the community's independence, etc.  Another way to explore would be
to have people hired by companies for working on Parabola, without any
connection to the companies' profit stream.  That might sound
impossible, but keep in mind rich companies host foundations, buy art,
etc., just for the sake of their image.  The double advantage of using
SFC, SPI, or Fundatia Ceata, is first that they're more ethically
aligned with the project than corporations, and second, that they
already took care of getting the funds and can allocate them without or
with less influence from their corporate or institutional sponsors.

==
hk

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From tct at ceata.org  Fri Dec 19 08:19:08 2014
From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 10:19:08 +0200
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu> <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
 <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>

On 19.12.2014 02:25, hellekin wrote:
> On 12/18/2014 05:36 PM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote:
> 
>> Finally, if joining as an autonomous project in an organization is the
>> way the project decides to go for, Funda?ia Ceata is willing to help
>> Parabola. From my point of view as free software activist, founder and
>> president of Ceata, Parabola should join a free software oriented
>> organization like Ceata. Both SFC and SPI host nonfree distributions.
> 
> *** Thank you for your generous offer, Tiberiu.
> 
> I didn't offer this suggestion for Parabola to "join" anything,

Actually, your friend and you did use the word "join" and this is why I
used it:

On 17.12.2014 04:16, hellekin wrote:
> A friend of mine suggested that Parabola could join the
> http://sfconservancy.org/ to benefit from their infrastructure and help.

This is the term used by SFC, too:

"Applying to Join Conservancy as a Member Project"
https://sfconservancy.org/members/apply/

> but to
> be able to accept transparent institutional support for taking care of
> an expressed need to support full-time dedication to the project and/or
> compensate people's work.

Ceata has no intention and will not take or pretend credit for Parabola
project, if you accept our institutional support.

> At any rate, I would recommend against *joining* anything.  

The only reason I used "join" is because you proposed this term to
describe the idea. And two project members thumbed up the idea as you
formulated it.

> I'd like to
> see volunteer sponsors take care of part of the costs of maintenance of
> the community, including some living costs of developers so that they
> can spend more time on the project instead of having to work on
> unrelated things--again, because that was an expressed need.

If you decide to collaborate with Ceata, every donation marked Parabola
or claimed for Parabola will get to your project, this is a guarantee.

> Anyway I think there are processes to be invented here, especially to
> keep the community's independence, etc.  

It's true that if Parabola will accept Ceata's instutional support,
Parabola will have even more visibility in our community and more of our
volunteers will contribute to Parabola (like Sorin - smv - used to).

However, in order to guarantee you Ceata has no hidden agenda, I propose
we put in our agreement that as long Ceata offers institutional support
to Parabola, *no* Ceata member who is also a Parabola contributor can
have vote in the Parabola project.

> Another way to explore would be
> to have people hired by companies for working on Parabola, without any
> connection to the companies' profit stream.  That might sound
> impossible, but keep in mind rich companies host foundations, buy art,
> etc., just for the sake of their image.  The double advantage of using
> SFC, SPI, or Fundatia Ceata, is first that they're more ethically
> aligned with the project than corporations, and second, that they
> already took care of getting the funds and can allocate them without or
> with less influence from their corporate or institutional sponsors.

SFC and SPI are not completely aligned to the free software philosophy
of the GNU project, but Ceata is and Richard Stallman is the icon of
Ceata's conference where he accepted the title of honorific member of
Ceata in June this year.

Both SFC and SPI uses the terms "Free, Libre, and Open Source Software"
(FLOSS), "open source and free software", and "free and open source
software" (FOSS), but never only "free software".

Both SFC and SPI have nonfree GNU/Linux distributions as member projects:

"Foresight Linux" @SFC: http://sfconservancy.org/members/current/

Debian, "Arch Linux", Chakra:  @SPI: http://spi-inc.org/projects/

I hope you don't decide to join Arch and Chakra (based on Arch) at SPI,
because you are fully free distribution based on Arch. I think you
should keep separated from the parent nonfree distribution and accept
support from an ethical organization aligned with the free software
philosophy, the same gNewSense has form FSF. SFC also supports a nonfree
distribution, but I believe Ceata is a good fit for Parabola.

Here gNewSense is listed as "a GNU/Linux distribution based on Debian,
with sponsorship from the FSF".

http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html

It would be nice to add the following to Parabola, in recognition of our
help, if you decide to accept it:

"Parabola GNU/Linux, a distribution based on Arch that prioritizes
simple package and system management, with institutional support from
Funda?ia Ceata".

What do you think?

-- 
Tiberiu C. Turbureanu
Pre?edinte, Funda?ia Ceata
http://turbureanu.ro/contact

Sus?ii libertatea artelor ?i tehnologiilor?
?nscrie-te ca membru: http://ceata.org/%C3%AEnscrieri

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From tct at ceata.org  Fri Dec 19 10:02:10 2014
From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 12:02:10 +0200
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <9C136574-CC03-498C-B126-E84EBC6C7E3E@deshackra.com>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu> <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
 <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org> <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>
 <9C136574-CC03-498C-B126-E84EBC6C7E3E@deshackra.com>
Message-ID: <2E171CCE-5350-4AED-900E-C0253C35114B@ceata.org>

On 19 decembrie 2014 10:30:01 EET, Jorge Araya Navarro <elcorreo at deshackra.com> wrote:
>Sounds cool, but, what does Ceata get from Parabola joining Ceata?

Reputation for offering support to an important international project fully aligned with the free software philosophy, the way Ceata is too.

"Important" because Parabola is the most up to date completely free distribution.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


From hellekin at gnu.org  Fri Dec 19 13:21:44 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 10:21:44 -0300
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu> <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
 <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org> <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>
Message-ID: <54942668.3030106@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/19/2014 05:19 AM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote:
> 
> Actually, your friend and you did use the word "join" and this is why I
> used it:
>
*** Oh right, when I relay other people's words, I tend to forget about
details.  Still, you have expressed something that I think Parabola
hackers should seriously take into account.

Cheers,

==
hk

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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Fri Dec 19 16:45:13 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 13:45:13 -0300
Subject: [Dev] [Daniel Micay] [arch-dev-public] Proposal: enabling full ASLR
	on x86_64 via hardening-wrapper
Message-ID: <87ioh71td2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>


FYI

-- 
}(:=


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From elcorreo at deshackra.com  Fri Dec 19 18:19:12 2014
From: elcorreo at deshackra.com (Jorge Araya Navarro)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 12:19:12 -0600
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <2E171CCE-5350-4AED-900E-C0253C35114B@ceata.org>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu> <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
 <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org> <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>
 <9C136574-CC03-498C-B126-E84EBC6C7E3E@deshackra.com>
 <2E171CCE-5350-4AED-900E-C0253C35114B@ceata.org>
Message-ID: <8761d7zen3.fsf@deshackra.com>


Tiberiu C. Turbureanu writes:

> On 19 decembrie 2014 10:30:01 EET, Jorge Araya Navarro <elcorreo at deshackra.com> wrote:
>>Sounds cool, but, what does Ceata get from Parabola joining Ceata?
>
> Reputation for offering support to an important international project fully aligned with the free software
> philosophy, the way Ceata is too.

Ah, I see.

>
> "Important" because Parabola is the most up to date completely free distribution.

http://i.imgur.com/WP2YbIf.jpg

-- 
Pax et bonum.
Jorge Araya Navarro.
ES: Dise?ador Publicitario, Programador Python y colaborador en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EN: Ads Designer, Python programmer and contributor Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
EO: Anonco grafikisto, Pitino programalingvo programisto kai kontribuanto en Parabola GNU/Linux-libre
https://es.gravatar.com/shackra


From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Fri Dec 19 18:46:33 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 18:46:33 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
References: <874msysm1z.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5787.3060300@cryptolab.net>
 <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
 <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
Message-ID: <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hi,

I have been installing your packages, but the linux-libre-headers
required cloog which is not a package in any repo AFAIK*. I am not
using linux-libre at the moment, because my graphics card driver did
not work with it. I use the git version on Linux at the moment so I
can't do anything as yet. I will have to wait for my graphics driver
and my BeagleBone to start work on this.

I also got an odd occurrence when I was compiling binutils, the tar
file did not extract, and when I extracted it manually, the files were
not there. So what I did is I downloaded the binutils source from a a
mirror and extracted the files to the folder that makepkg needed to
create the package. Then it worked. Not sure why this occurred.

I will halt any progress for the moment, until I will be able to
compile. Should be ~1-2 weeks or so.

If you like, you can package linux-git-headers for the arm
architecture but it think it will be pointless, because I would not
need the package after a week or so.

*There was a package in the AUR, but it did not compile. I got the
error: /tmp/packerbuild-0/isl/isl/PKGBUILD: line 17: cd:
/tmp/packerbuild-0/isl/isl/src/isl-0.13: No such file or directory

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From lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de  Fri Dec 19 19:32:47 2014
From: lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de (Mono)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 20:32:47 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net>
References: <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
 <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
 <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de>

Hallo Kuba

> I have been installing your packages, but the linux-libre-headers
> required cloog which is not a package in any repo AFAIK*.

It seems they removed the cloog package from Arch Linux and I did not notice this before your email. Also I just found this link [1]. it says they would remove it. As of yesterday I pushed some updated PKGBUILDs to my git repo [0]. The cloog dependency should no longer exist. Would you mind pulling the updates and start the packages build process again? I would be very interessted knowing if they successfully build on someones machine other than mine.

[0] git://git.donderkumpen.de/parabola_arm
[1] https://www.archlinux.org/todo/remove-cloogisl-dependency-in-gcc-packages/

thanks and best regards
Mono


From lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de  Fri Dec 19 19:40:44 2014
From: lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de (Mono)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 20:40:44 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de>
References: <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
 <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net>
 <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de>
Message-ID: <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de>

> [0] git://git.donderkumpen.de/parabola_arm
sorry it should have been
git://git.donderklumpen.de/parabola_arm


From hellekin at gnu.org  Fri Dec 19 20:23:58 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 17:23:58 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org> <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/11/2014 02:20 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> There is something we can do about Parabola stuff we could "sell"
> 
*** So, you're against the project receiving donations, but you're OK
with the project engaging in the trade economy.  I fail to understand
the logic.

==
hk

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From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Fri Dec 19 21:01:06 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 21:01:06 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de>
References: <87oar6r2rt.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net>
 <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net>
 <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home> <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net> <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de> <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net>
 <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de>
Message-ID: <54949212.4010300@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Sure, I will attempt to get it to work. I will reply when I am finished.
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sat Dec 20 07:49:31 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:49:31 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Fri,
 19 Dec 2014 17:23:58 -0300")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home>

hellekin <hellekin at gnu.org> writes:

> On 12/11/2014 02:20 PM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> There is something we can do about Parabola stuff we could "sell"
>> 
> *** So, you're against the project receiving donations, but you're OK
> with the project engaging in the trade economy.  I fail to understand
> the logic.
>
> ==
> hk

You get out the sentence from its context.


But I will respond:


The logic is simple, Parabola is a project that at this state is free to
everyone to join, from incredible coders to the one that just don't know
what GNU is.

This last one, the one that just don't know what a computer is, is also
the growing generation of people that want to learn and improve their
knowledge. At this time, without money, there is no interest in doing
things 1 or 2, so everyone is free to built a package, compile a kernel,
have the fingers in the servers, bring some new project.

With money, you will kill that playground for everyone, and will make a
money playground.

That seems disturbing for you, it is not a competition, it is at this
time also a free place to enjoy free code in a playground of true
friendship.

There is not true friendship at the time there is money interest.

This community heart is in its friendship.


I understand that could be disturbing for some people.

You also use incitment to me, so the best for you should to M-x doctor
What is your plan Hellekin?

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sat Dec 20 09:35:41 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:35:41 +0100
Subject: [Dev] 3D printer and Parabola
Message-ID: <87d27e3bpu.fsf@unicorn.home>


Who have used https://www.lulzbot.com/products/lulzbot-taz-4-3d-printer/
?

Which software is need to make it run and to create the 3D design?

Who have used it on Parabola?

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp
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From kzer-za at cryptolab.net  Sat Dec 20 10:39:07 2014
From: kzer-za at cryptolab.net (Kuba Kukielka)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:39:07 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de>
References: <548D5D57.9030708@cryptolab.net> <87k31ur1je.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
 <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net> <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de>
 <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de>
Message-ID: <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Ugh. So many errors. I was trying to compile the stage 2 of gcc but
got this error:

/home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm/armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage2/PKGBUILD:
line 90:
/home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm/armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage2/src/gcc-4.9.2/configure:
Permission denied

I have tried:

- - To change permissions by right-clicking the file and going into
properties. (dolphin)
- - Trying to making the package again. (twice)
- - Removing all files excluding the PKGBUILD and the patch.

I am compiling as root using the --asroot option. I extracted the tar
file (because it did not happen for some reason) and then I got this
error.
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From lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de  Sat Dec 20 11:43:58 2014
From: lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de (Mono)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:43:58 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net>
References: <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
 <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net>
 <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de>
 <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de>
 <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net>
Message-ID: <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de>

ahoi Kuba

thank you for trying this!

> I was trying to compile the stage 2 of gcc

does this mean that you successfully built and installed the following packages?

armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-binutils
armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-linux-libre-api-headers
armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage1
armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-glibc-headers-and-startfiles

I just ask this to make sure you did. Those packages are absolutely necessary to be built and installed before trying to build armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage2. In case you installed those packages pacman should tell you:

$ pacman -Q |grep arm
armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-binutils 2.24-8
armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage1 4.9.2-1
armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-glibc-headers-and-startfiles 2.20-4
armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-linux-libre-api-headers 3.16.2_gnu-1

> but got this error:
> /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm/armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage2/PKGBUILD:
> line 90:
> /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm/armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage2/src/gcc-4.9.2/configure:
> Permission denied

this is odd. there shouldn't be any special privileges be required. you should be able to build any of those packages as any unprivileges user. the only command necessary to build any package should be:
$ makepkg
nothing more

could you provide the output of the following three commands please? maybe they reveal some problem due to permissions:
$ ls -ld /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace
$ ls -ld /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm
$ ls -l  /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm

> 
> I have tried:
> 
> - - To change permissions by right-clicking the file and going into
> properties. (dolphin)

don't do that. there is no need to change permissions.

> - - Trying to making the package again. (twice)

don't do that. when building the package, always start from a clean environment, I mean remove any files and directories some previous attempt might have been created.

> - - Removing all files excluding the PKGBUILD and the patch.

that should be good.

> I am compiling as root using the --asroot option. 

again, don't. there is no need to do this as root. Actually doing things as root is dangerous as long as you are not absolutely sure what the commands and scripts do.

> I extracted the tar
> file (because it did not happen for some reason) and then I got this
> error.

maybe this could be a permission issue again?

in case you are at IRC #parabola, we could continue tracking down the issue there :)

greets Mono


From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Sat Dec 20 14:17:45 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:17:45 -0300
Subject: [Dev] 3D printer and Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87d27e3bpu.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87d27e3bpu.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87k31mz9py.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>

Aur?lien DESBRI?RES <aurelien at hackers.camp> writes:

> Who have used https://www.lulzbot.com/products/lulzbot-taz-4-3d-printer/
> ?
>
> Which software is need to make it run and to create the 3D design?
>
> Who have used it on Parabola?

i would've if only customs would've let it through :c

-- 
http://utopia.partidopirata.com.ar/
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From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Sat Dec 20 20:28:35 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 15:28:35 -0500
Subject: [Dev] 3D printer and Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87d27e3bpu.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <87d27e3bpu.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <87ppbeysjw.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>

At Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:35:41 +0100,
Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> [1  <multipart/signed (7bit)>]
> [1.1  <text/plain (quoted-printable)>]
> 
> Who have used https://www.lulzbot.com/products/lulzbot-taz-4-3d-printer/
> ?
> 
> Which software is need to make it run and to create the 3D design?
> 
> Who have used it on Parabola?

I have the earlier AO-100 (well, sort-of. I built it, but it's nearly
identical).  Most of the software to use it isn't packaged for
Parabola, mostly because of difficulties with some libraries and such.
It is Free though, so I don't have too many qualms about just using
precompiled binaries.  Most of the stuff in in the "java/not-working"
folder in abslibre.

With it I use:
 - The "Marlin" firmware
 - The Arduino IDE to update the firmware
 - Printrun's "Pronterface" for the software UI.
 - "Slic3r" to convert .stl files to .gcode files for Pronterface
   (instead of Printerface's integrated Skeinforge support, which does
   the same thing).

It appears that the TAZ 4 still uses the same software as I use:
http://download.lulzbot.com/TAZ/4.0/software/2014Q2/

As for creating new models; I never did that.  But that's mostly
because I never got it working well (hardware calibration; I'm
software guy...).  I know that OpenSCAD is a popular option for
programmer-oriented peaople.  I also have looked into kCAD
(KDE-based).

--
Happy hacking,
~ Luke Shumaker


From hellekin at gnu.org  Sat Dec 20 21:54:57 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 18:54:57 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>	<877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>	<5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
 <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>	<548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>	<F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>	<87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>	<878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>	<874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>	<548496B6.2050502@gnu.org>
 <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>	<1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1>
 <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>	<877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org> <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <5495F031.605@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/20/2014 04:49 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> You get out the sentence from its context.
> 
*** It's because it does not require any context to be relevant to the
question I ask.

> 
> But I will respond:
>
*** You do not respond to my simple question: what makes donations bad
that makes "selling stuff" acceptable?

> 
> There is not true friendship at the time there is money interest.
> This community heart is in its friendship.
> I understand that could be disturbing for some people.
>
*** It's not to me.  What disturbs me is that you won't let others who
think it would be good for the project if they'd receive money do it,
and then you propose "selling stuff" as an acceptable alternative.

> You also use incitment to me, so the best for you should to M-x doctor
> What is your plan Hellekin?
> 
*** I don't have any. Since Icarious started this thread (tagged
URGENT), I suggested solutions to satisfy every participant, but seem to
have failed finding anything that would satisfy you specifically.  Then
you come up with that "selling stuff" argument which seems entirely
illogical from your previous--and apparently current--perspective. Hence
my question.

==
hk

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From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Sat Dec 20 22:43:56 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 17:43:56 -0500
Subject: [Dev] hackers.git migration
Message-ID: <87lhm2ymab.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>

hackers.git master is dead!  Long live hackers.git master!

I just phased out the old hackers.git master (renamed it to 'old'),
and we're now using lukeshu/restructure (now renamed to 'master').

All of the SSH keys are now configured through it, no more massive
authorized_keys files to manage.  The checkout on the server is
automatically updated in a post-recieve hook.

For the parabola-keyring, just run 'make pacman-keyring', the output
will be in 'output/pacman-keyring'.

Things it can/should be able to do, but doesn't yet:

 - manage the @parabola.nu email aliases
   It's generating a file in
   /var/cache/parabola-hackers/output/postfix-virtual-map/, but it
   isn't used yet.
 - The users in /etc/password came out of a script that I had that
   dumped the info in passwd format; it's not auto-updated.  Check out
   my hacked-up nslcd for dynamically getting the info from the git
   repo.
 - parabolaweb users
   totally unimplemented

-- 
Happy hacking,
~ Luke Shumaker


From emulatorman at riseup.net  Sun Dec 21 00:30:53 2014
From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFNpbHZh?=)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 22:30:53 -0200
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu> <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
 <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org> <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>
Message-ID: <549614BD.4030201@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 12/19/2014 06:19 AM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote:
> It would be nice to add the following to Parabola, in recognition
> of our help, if you decide to accept it:
> 
> "Parabola GNU/Linux, a distribution based on Arch that prioritizes 
> simple package and system management, with institutional support
> from Funda?ia Ceata".
> 
> What do you think?

Yes, i support the idea that Ceata could offer support to us and not
SFC and SPI because like you say "Both are hosting nonfree
distributions", also we could offer our distro as the main distro used
for Ceata and it could good for both!

However put Ceata as special recognition in Parabola from the free
distros list [0] shouldn't be good because Parabola is supported for
the community in its essence too and it could take away the great
recognition of hard time of work and help made for our community in
all these years!

Otherwise, i suggest that we could give a special recognition for
Ceata, but in our main website [1] as we gave for Fundaci?n GNUChile,
Naltu, etc.

[0]:https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
[1]:https://www.parabola.nu/
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From coadde at riseup.net  Sun Dec 21 00:33:23 2014
From: coadde at riseup.net (coadde)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 00:33:23 +0000
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <549614BD.4030201@riseup.net>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu> <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
 <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org> <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>
 <549614BD.4030201@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <54961553.7030909@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512



Andr? Silva:
> On 12/19/2014 06:19 AM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote:
>> It would be nice to add the following to Parabola, in
>> recognition of our help, if you decide to accept it:
> 
>> "Parabola GNU/Linux, a distribution based on Arch that
>> prioritizes simple package and system management, with
>> institutional support from Funda?ia Ceata".
> 
>> What do you think?
> 
> Yes, i support the idea that Ceata could offer support to us and
> not SFC and SPI because like you say "Both are hosting nonfree 
> distributions", also we could offer our distro as the main distro
> used for Ceata and it could good for both!
> 
> However put Ceata as special recognition in Parabola from the free 
> distros list [0] shouldn't be good because Parabola is supported
> for the community in its essence too and it could take away the
> great recognition of hard time of work and help made for our
> community in all these years!
> 
> Otherwise, i suggest that we could give a special recognition for 
> Ceata, but in our main website [1] as we gave for Fundaci?n
> GNUChile, Naltu, etc.
> 
> [0]:https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html 
> [1]:https://www.parabola.nu/ 
> _______________________________________________ Dev mailing list 
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu 
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
> 
+1
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From tct at ceata.org  Sun Dec 21 01:42:27 2014
From: tct at ceata.org (Tiberiu C. Turbureanu)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 03:42:27 +0200
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <549614BD.4030201@riseup.net>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu> <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
 <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org> <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>
 <549614BD.4030201@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <E813ABB6-F076-47B3-8C74-8756E829DF7A@ceata.org>

On 21 decembrie 2014 02:30:53 EET, "Andr? Silva" <emulatorman at riseup.net> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA256
>
>On 12/19/2014 06:19 AM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote:
>> It would be nice to add the following to Parabola, in recognition
>> of our help, if you decide to accept it:
>> 
>> "Parabola GNU/Linux, a distribution based on Arch that prioritizes 
>> simple package and system management, with institutional support
>> from Funda?ia Ceata".

>Otherwise, i suggest that we could give a special recognition for
>Ceata, but in our main website [1] as we gave for Fundaci?n GNUChile,
>Naltu, etc.

It's your call. I said it would be nice. It doesn't have to happen.

Ceata is looking forward to start this collaboration with Parabola because we want to helo you. If you agree we should draft an agreement and start effectively from January.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


From emulatorman at riseup.net  Sun Dec 21 02:40:37 2014
From: emulatorman at riseup.net (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIFNpbHZh?=)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 00:40:37 -0200
Subject: [Dev] SFC
In-Reply-To: <E813ABB6-F076-47B3-8C74-8756E829DF7A@ceata.org>
References: <5490E764.7090400@gnu.org> <5490FF12.8090501@gnu.org>
 <87sigehj6q.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491CE3C.7080903@gnu.org>
 <87k31qdsic.fsf@unicorn.home> <5491D97B.2050400@gnu.org>
 <87sigearw7.fsf@unicorn.home> <87lhm5nb27.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87lhm5trat.fsf@mtjm.eu> <54933AC9.8050602@ceata.org>
 <5493708F.4090904@gnu.org> <5493DF7C.5080102@ceata.org>
 <549614BD.4030201@riseup.net>
 <E813ABB6-F076-47B3-8C74-8756E829DF7A@ceata.org>
Message-ID: <54963325.9010605@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 12/20/2014 11:42 PM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote:
> On 21 decembrie 2014 02:30:53 EET, "Andr? Silva"
> <emulatorman at riseup.net> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
>> 
>> On 12/19/2014 06:19 AM, Tiberiu C. Turbureanu wrote:
>>> It would be nice to add the following to Parabola, in
>>> recognition of our help, if you decide to accept it:
>>> 
>>> "Parabola GNU/Linux, a distribution based on Arch that
>>> prioritizes simple package and system management, with
>>> institutional support from Funda?ia Ceata".
> 
>> Otherwise, i suggest that we could give a special recognition
>> for Ceata, but in our main website [1] as we gave for Fundaci?n
>> GNUChile, Naltu, etc.
> 
> It's your call. I said it would be nice. It doesn't have to
> happen.
> 
> Ceata is looking forward to start this collaboration with Parabola
> because we want to helo you. If you agree we should draft an
> agreement and start effectively from January.
> 
+1
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 21 03:51:08 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 04:51:08 +0100
Subject: [Dev] 3D printer and Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87ppbeysjw.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net> (Luke Shumaker's message of
 "Sat, 20 Dec 2014 15:28:35 -0500")
References: <87d27e3bpu.fsf@unicorn.home> <87ppbeysjw.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <878ui1vexf.fsf@unicorn.home>


Luke Shumaker <lukeshu at sbcglobal.net> writes:

> At Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:35:41 +0100,
> Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>> 
>> [1  <multipart/signed (7bit)>]
>> [1.1  <text/plain (quoted-printable)>]
>> 
>> Who have used https://www.lulzbot.com/products/lulzbot-taz-4-3d-printer/
>> ?
>> 
>> Which software is need to make it run and to create the 3D design?
>> 
>> Who have used it on Parabola?
>
> I have the earlier AO-100 (well, sort-of. I built it, but it's nearly
> identical).  Most of the software to use it isn't packaged for
> Parabola, mostly because of difficulties with some libraries and such.
> It is Free though, so I don't have too many qualms about just using
> precompiled binaries.  Most of the stuff in in the "java/not-working"
> folder in abslibre.
>
> With it I use:
>  - The "Marlin" firmware
>  - The Arduino IDE to update the firmware
>  - Printrun's "Pronterface" for the software UI.
>  - "Slic3r" to convert .stl files to .gcode files for Pronterface
>    (instead of Printerface's integrated Skeinforge support, which does
>    the same thing).
>
> It appears that the TAZ 4 still uses the same software as I use:
> http://download.lulzbot.com/TAZ/4.0/software/2014Q2/
>
> As for creating new models; I never did that.  But that's mostly
> because I never got it working well (hardware calibration; I'm
> software guy...).  I know that OpenSCAD is a popular option for
> programmer-oriented peaople.  I also have looked into kCAD
> (KDE-based).
>
> --
> Happy hacking,
> ~ Luke Shumaker

Thanks Luke for the list, I keep that and will try to packages what
could be need for that sort of stuff.

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
http://www.hackers.camp
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 21 04:12:03 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 05:12:03 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <5495F031.605@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Sat, 20
 Dec 2014 18:54:57 -0300")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
 <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home> <5495F031.605@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home>


Stop to blame me to try to defend something I care about.

I have tell my point of view, and my point of view is that if you
introduce money on task, money on works, money as reward to something,
... you will *destroy* :: 

. This friendship community (there is no friend when there is money)
. The point that this community since there is no money offer its chance
to other people to start to discover what Computer Science is.
. This community as is, is a free doors to everyone to discover hacking
without any challenge than their own.
. Things you wouldn't believe

You, and some other think that money will bring new opportunity and that
is right, but do not blame me because you and some other will destroy
that.

"have fun & be free"
Where is fun in money? Are you free because you have money?

And stop to tell me that I decide for other, I give my point of view,
and everyone is free to do what he want.

Because from memory, no one never block alone others people in their
choice for Parabola.

M-x doctor
Why if you have no plan are you agressive with me?

-- 
Aurelien Desbrieres
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From hellekin at gnu.org  Sun Dec 21 13:15:50 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 10:15:50 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>	<877fy6cgm2.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <87siguupbp.fsf@hackers.camp>	<5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
 <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>	<548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>	<F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>	<87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>	<878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>	<874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>	<548496B6.2050502@gnu.org>
 <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>	<1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1>
 <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>	<877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>	<87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <5495F031.605@gnu.org> <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home>
Message-ID: <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 12/21/2014 01:12 AM, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
> 
> Stop to blame me to try to defend something I care about.
> 
*** I don't blame you, I try to understand why you think money is OK
when it's trade, but not when it's a gift.

> ... you will *destroy* :: 
>
*** Are you blaming me for doing something in the future that is not my
intention? :P

>
> Why if you have no plan are you agressive with me?
> 
*** I don't feel aggressive with you.  I'm simply stating the lack of
logic in your position, and want to understand how the different parties
involved can reach a consensus on--not whether, but how to bring money
in without frustrating anyone.

You think money will destroy everything, yet, other people tell you that
money is just a mean, and not an end.  I've worked for projects without
money, a lot, and a long time.  There's a point where one needs to earn
money in order to maintain oneself.  That's not about destroying
anything, but about enabling things to happen in the long term.

Aur?lien, you've been deliberately avoiding simple questions I've made
that would easily end the loop we're in right now: do you earn money or
not?  Do you know of any free software project that does not require any
money even indirectly--people working on such project "in their spare
time"?  I can predict that the former is yes, and the latter is no,
because we're all living in the same non-idealistic world where social
approval is largely replaced by the trade economy.

That does not mean including money turns anything into a trade economy.
 That simply means in order to live in this world and interact with it,
some money is needed as the interface sometimes.  Hopefully the social
approval at work in Parabola will remain strong and prevalent, but I
think rejecting money as a whole is more likely to damage the project
than accepting donations, which are a mark of social approval from
people who do earn money from their daily activity.  The form of those
donations is subject to discussion.  What Tiberiu proposed seems very
acceptable to me in principle, and it's another thing to determine how
the project will allocate this money.  Obviously, if you think money is
not kosher, you're volunteering not to receive any.  But still, you
shall benefit from it, as it will be transformed into productive work time.

==
hk
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Sun Dec 21 13:43:41 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:43:41 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org> (hellekin@gnu.org's message of "Sun,
 21 Dec 2014 10:15:50 -0300")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
 <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home> <5495F031.605@gnu.org>
 <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home> <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org>
Message-ID: <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>


He is what could be done to not *destroy* things.

.No money for the dev or any people.

.Money for Parabola servers and domain name, not for travel, material or
anything else.

.All the rest of money for the FSF.

.Or just no money. (As I have say at first)

As I already explain:

Introducing money to dev or people will destroy frienship of the
community.

Introducing money to dev or people will introduce competition on act
that bring to destroy the discovering role in Computer Sciences and
Hackers side.

I do not accuse or blame you (or anyone else) to doing that, just a fact
that introducing money on people or act will do destroy many things.

Is that ok like that?

--
Aurelien DESBRIERES
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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Sun Dec 21 18:09:24 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:09:24 -0300
Subject: [Dev] money, a summary
Message-ID: <87wq5kyiwb.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>


hey, i made a summary of everything we've been talking about managing
money.  since the mailing list is nice and all but it doesn't contribute
to a common position, i proppose we move anything that is not a personal
feud to the pad ;)

i tried to put everyone's position in it, if i wasn't fair please
modify.

http://pad.partidopirata.com.ar/p/ParabolaAndMoney

-- 
}(:=
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From hellekin at gnu.org  Sun Dec 21 18:36:01 2014
From: hellekin at gnu.org (hellekin)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:36:01 -0300
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>	<5482171D.7010706@gnu.org>
 <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>	<548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>	<F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>	<87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>	<878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>	<874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>	<548496B6.2050502@gnu.org>
 <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>	<1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1>
 <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>	<877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>	<87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <5495F031.605@gnu.org>	<874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org> <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <54971311.50003@gnu.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Aur?lien, you've been deliberately avoiding simple questions I've made
that would easily end the loop we're in right now: do you earn money or
not?  Do you know of any free software project that does not require any
money even indirectly--people working on such project "in their spare
time"?
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From ingegnue at riseup.net  Sun Dec 21 20:27:34 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 20:27:34 +0000
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <5482171D.7010706@gnu.org> <87sigtbvd8.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org> <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
 <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home> <5495F031.605@gnu.org>
 <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home> <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org>
 <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <813E2622-10FB-47C2-B015-B9C3E7BF6C13@riseup.net>

If I may...

"Introducing money to dev or people will introduce competition"
"will destroy friendship"

So if I understand correctly, Aurelien has a concern that money given to the devs or community will destroy social bonds because it would introduce competition. 

There is one thing I don't understand: Doesn't competition already exist, but in a nonmonetary form?



On December 21, 2014 8:43:41 AM EST, aurelien at hackers.camp wrote:
>
>He is what could be done to not *destroy* things.
>
>.No money for the dev or any people.
>
>.Money for Parabola servers and domain name, not for travel, material
>or
>anything else.
>
>.All the rest of money for the FSF.
>
>.Or just no money. (As I have say at first)
>
>As I already explain:
>
>Introducing money to dev or people will destroy frienship of the
>community.
>
>Introducing money to dev or people will introduce competition on act
>that bring to destroy the discovering role in Computer Sciences and
>Hackers side.
>
>I do not accuse or blame you (or anyone else) to doing that, just a
>fact
>that introducing money on people or act will do destroy many things.
>
>Is that ok like that?
>
>--
>Aurelien DESBRIERES
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Dev mailing list
>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev



From lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de  Mon Dec 22 15:08:44 2014
From: lists+dev-parabolagnulinux at donderklumpen.de (Mono)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 16:08:44 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Review request for a cross-compiler and linux-libre
Message-ID: <20141222150844.GA1640@donderklumpen.de>

Ahoi all,

is there somebody willing to review a cross-compiler package source? The cross-compiler aims on building Parabola ARM packages on say a Parabola x86_64 machine. There are instructions on where to get the sources and how to build the cross-compiler at the wiki [0]. After successful review which most likely should involve some improvements, the cross-compiler hopefully could be adopted by Parabola hackers and continue its life in the official Parabola repo.

Also there is an example package which the cross-compiler is able to build: linux-libre. This package source is derived from Parabola's linux-libre with added ARM architecture and the ability to be built by a cross-compiler. The wiki [1] has instructions on how the cross-compiler can build this package.

Any help on reviewing, comments, improvements are much appreciated. Feedback on successful builds or failure are welcome too.

best regards
Mono

[0] https://wiki.parabola.nu/Cross_compiler#Cross_compiler_-_ARM
[1] https://wiki.parabola.nu/Cross_compiler#Usage_with_an_example_package


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Mon Dec 22 15:17:10 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 16:17:10 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <813E2622-10FB-47C2-B015-B9C3E7BF6C13@riseup.net>
 (ingegnue@riseup.net's message of "Sun, 21 Dec 2014 20:27:34 +0000")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
 <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home> <5495F031.605@gnu.org>
 <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home> <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org>
 <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <813E2622-10FB-47C2-B015-B9C3E7BF6C13@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <87egrriuix.fsf@hackers.camp>


No that is not what I have mean.

Introducing money will bring high level people to parabola (that is
cool)
But that will get the place of new incomers without level that want to
learn and discover computer science.

That will also kill friendship because it is well known that where there
is money there is no true friendship.

That is clear, there is no interpretation or anymore other question.

Donate is not the trouble, the usage of the money is the trouble.

Since no one than me seems to care about and since you have decided to
introduce money at all level of the distro, stop to ask me anything, I
have already told all of what I think.

ingegnue <ingegnue at riseup.net> writes:

> If I may...
>
> "Introducing money to dev or people will introduce competition"
> "will destroy friendship"
>
> So if I understand correctly, Aurelien has a concern that money given
> to the devs or community will destroy social bonds because it would
> introduce competition.
>
> There is one thing I don't understand: Doesn't competition already exist, but in a nonmonetary form?
>
>
>
> On December 21, 2014 8:43:41 AM EST, aurelien at hackers.camp wrote:
>>
>>He is what could be done to not *destroy* things.
>>
>>.No money for the dev or any people.
>>
>>.Money for Parabola servers and domain name, not for travel, material
>>or
>>anything else.
>>
>>.All the rest of money for the FSF.
>>
>>.Or just no money. (As I have say at first)
>>
>>As I already explain:
>>
>>Introducing money to dev or people will destroy frienship of the
>>community.
>>
>>Introducing money to dev or people will introduce competition on act
>>that bring to destroy the discovering role in Computer Sciences and
>>Hackers side.
>>
>>I do not accuse or blame you (or anyone else) to doing that, just a
>>fact
>>that introducing money on people or act will do destroy many things.
>>
>>Is that ok like that?
>>
>>--
>>Aurelien DESBRIERES
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Dev mailing list
>>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
>
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Mon Dec 22 15:20:18 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 16:20:18 +0100
Subject: [Dev] money, a summary
In-Reply-To: <87wq5kyiwb.fsf@endefensadelsl.org> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Nicol=C3=A1?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= Reynolds"'s message
 of "Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:09:24 -0300")
References: <87wq5kyiwb.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <87a92fiudp.fsf@hackers.camp>

Nicol?s Reynolds <fauno at endefensadelsl.org> writes:

> hey, i made a summary of everything we've been talking about managing
> money.  since the mailing list is nice and all but it doesn't contribute
> to a common position, i proppose we move anything that is not a personal
> feud to the pad ;)
>
> i tried to put everyone's position in it, if i wasn't fair please
> modify.
>
> http://pad.partidopirata.com.ar/p/ParabolaAndMoney

Nice idea

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES
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From daniel.petre at rcs-rds.ro  Mon Dec 22 15:20:12 2014
From: daniel.petre at rcs-rds.ro (Daniel Petre)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 17:20:12 +0200
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87egrriuix.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org> <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
 <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home> <5495F031.605@gnu.org>
 <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home> <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org>
 <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <813E2622-10FB-47C2-B015-B9C3E7BF6C13@riseup.net>
 <87egrriuix.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <549836AC.9030502@rcs-rds.ro>

On 22/12/14 17:17, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>
> That will also kill friendship because it is well known that where there
> is money there is no true friendship.

Are you sure? Usually when people state that i can't stop thinking 
they're went to the wrong employers..

>
> That is clear, there is no interpretation or anymore other question.

Plenty of money around me (work place) and still we keep working like 
friends (my office).


From aurelien at hackers.camp  Mon Dec 22 15:48:29 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 16:48:29 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <549836AC.9030502@rcs-rds.ro> (Daniel Petre's message of "Mon, 22
 Dec 2014 17:20:12 +0200")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
 <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home> <5495F031.605@gnu.org>
 <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home> <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org>
 <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <813E2622-10FB-47C2-B015-B9C3E7BF6C13@riseup.net>
 <87egrriuix.fsf@hackers.camp> <549836AC.9030502@rcs-rds.ro>
Message-ID: <873887it2q.fsf@hackers.camp>

Daniel Petre <daniel.petre at rcs-rds.ro> writes:

> On 22/12/14 17:17, Aur?lien DESBRI?RES wrote:
>>
>> That will also kill friendship because it is well known that where there
>> is money there is no true friendship.
>
> Are you sure? Usually when people state that i can't stop thinking
> they're went to the wrong employers..
>
>>
>> That is clear, there is no interpretation or anymore other question.
>
> Plenty of money around me (work place) and still we keep working like
> friends (my office).
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev

Yes I am deeply sure by experience, there is no true friendship when
there is money between people.

And worst you kill true friendship by introducing money :'(

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES
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From ingegnue at riseup.net  Mon Dec 22 16:53:18 2014
From: ingegnue at riseup.net (ingegnue)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 16:53:18 +0000
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87egrriuix.fsf@hackers.camp>
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <548246ED.1050403@gnu.org> <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
 <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home> <5495F031.605@gnu.org>
 <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home> <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org>
 <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <813E2622-10FB-47C2-B015-B9C3E7BF6C13@riseup.net>
 <87egrriuix.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <435DEFC8-63F8-4B1F-A694-EEDC590B6CCA@riseup.net>

Sorry but I'm just trying understand.

What is it exactly about money that hurts friendship?

My life partner and I deal with money all the time and it never hurts our relationship. We share all things equally and according to need. Money is to us a means of survival, not an end in itself.

Similarly, I have had friends who offered assistance in a time of need, and vice versa.

On December 22, 2014 10:17:10 AM EST, aurelien at hackers.camp wrote:
>
>No that is not what I have mean.
>
>Introducing money will bring high level people to parabola (that is
>cool)
>But that will get the place of new incomers without level that want to
>learn and discover computer science.
>
>That will also kill friendship because it is well known that where
>there
>is money there is no true friendship.
>
>That is clear, there is no interpretation or anymore other question.
>
>Donate is not the trouble, the usage of the money is the trouble.
>
>Since no one than me seems to care about and since you have decided to
>introduce money at all level of the distro, stop to ask me anything, I
>have already told all of what I think.
>
>ingegnue <ingegnue at riseup.net> writes:
>
>> If I may...
>>
>> "Introducing money to dev or people will introduce competition"
>> "will destroy friendship"
>>
>> So if I understand correctly, Aurelien has a concern that money given
>> to the devs or community will destroy social bonds because it would
>> introduce competition.
>>
>> There is one thing I don't understand: Doesn't competition already
>exist, but in a nonmonetary form?
>>
>>
>>
>> On December 21, 2014 8:43:41 AM EST, aurelien at hackers.camp wrote:
>>>
>>>He is what could be done to not *destroy* things.
>>>
>>>.No money for the dev or any people.
>>>
>>>.Money for Parabola servers and domain name, not for travel, material
>>>or
>>>anything else.
>>>
>>>.All the rest of money for the FSF.
>>>
>>>.Or just no money. (As I have say at first)
>>>
>>>As I already explain:
>>>
>>>Introducing money to dev or people will destroy frienship of the
>>>community.
>>>
>>>Introducing money to dev or people will introduce competition on act
>>>that bring to destroy the discovering role in Computer Sciences and
>>>Hackers side.
>>>
>>>I do not accuse or blame you (or anyone else) to doing that, just a
>>>fact
>>>that introducing money on people or act will do destroy many things.
>>>
>>>Is that ok like that?
>>>
>>>--
>>>Aurelien DESBRIERES
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Dev mailing list
>>>Dev at lists.parabola.nu
>>>https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>>
>>
><#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>



From coadde at riseup.net  Mon Dec 22 19:52:29 2014
From: coadde at riseup.net (coadde)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 19:52:29 +0000
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Parabola ARM Port
In-Reply-To: <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de>
References: <548D76FF.8020307@cryptolab.net> <87fvciqw8u.fsf@unicorn.home>
 <87bnn6qvpm.fsf@unicorn.home> <548D8C65.9060906@cryptolab.net>
 <874msyqmkg.fsf@unicorn.home> <20141217210806.GA620@donderklumpen.de>
 <54947289.3010302@cryptolab.net> <20141219193247.GA560@donderklumpen.de>
 <20141219194044.GB560@donderklumpen.de> <549551CB.1090608@cryptolab.net>
 <20141220114358.GA1293@donderklumpen.de>
Message-ID: <5498767D.1030300@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Mono:
> ahoi Kuba
> 
> thank you for trying this!
> 
>> I was trying to compile the stage 2 of gcc
> 
> does this mean that you successfully built and installed the
> following packages?
> 
> armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-binutils 
> armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-linux-libre-api-headers 
> armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage1 
> armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-glibc-headers-and-startfiles
> 
> I just ask this to make sure you did. Those packages are absolutely
> necessary to be built and installed before trying to build
> armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage2. In case you installed
> those packages pacman should tell you:
> 
> $ pacman -Q |grep arm armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-binutils
> 2.24-8 armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage1 4.9.2-1 
> armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-glibc-headers-and-startfiles 2.20-4 
> armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-linux-libre-api-headers
> 3.16.2_gnu-1
> 
>> but got this error: 
>> /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm/armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage2/PKGBUILD:
>>
>> 
line 90:
>> /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm/armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf-gcc-stage2/src/gcc-4.9.2/configure:
>>
>> 
Permission denied
> 
> this is odd. there shouldn't be any special privileges be required.
> you should be able to build any of those packages as any
> unprivileges user. the only command necessary to build any package
> should be: $ makepkg nothing more
> 
> could you provide the output of the following three commands
> please? maybe they reveal some problem due to permissions: $ ls -ld
> /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace $ ls -ld
> /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm $ ls -l
> /home/kzer-za/parabola_workspace/parabola_arm
> 
>> 
>> I have tried:
>> 
>> - - To change permissions by right-clicking the file and going
>> into properties. (dolphin)
> 
> don't do that. there is no need to change permissions.
> 
>> - - Trying to making the package again. (twice)
> 
> don't do that. when building the package, always start from a clean
> environment, I mean remove any files and directories some previous
> attempt might have been created.
> 
>> - - Removing all files excluding the PKGBUILD and the patch.
> 
> that should be good.
> 
>> I am compiling as root using the --asroot option.
> 
> again, don't. there is no need to do this as root. Actually doing
> things as root is dangerous as long as you are not absolutely sure
> what the commands and scripts do.
> 
>> I extracted the tar file (because it did not happen for some
>> reason) and then I got this error.
> 
> maybe this could be a permission issue again?
> 
> in case you are at IRC #parabola, we could continue tracking down
> the issue there :)
> 
> greets Mono

I've built directly "xtensa-unknown-elf-gcc" without stage1 and stage2
and built "ath9k-htc-firmware[2]" (it depends on
xtensa-unknown-elf-{gcc/binutils} [0][1]) without
xtensa-unknown-elf-linux-libre-api-headers and xtensa-unknown-elf-glibc.
Otherwise, you could use cross-{binutils,gcc} as base to begin arm
cross-compiling, I've put inside PKGBUILD a table with examples about
different architectures to make yourself a new one.

But, i have a question for you: Is necessary to build gcc stage1, gcc
stage2, glibc, linux-libre-api-headers to cross compiling GNU/Linux
arm? In my opinion, it isn't necessary.

[0]:https://projects.parabola.nu/abslibre.git/tree/cross/cross-binutils/PKGBUILD
[1]:https://projects.parabola.nu/abslibre.git/tree/cross/cross-gcc/PKGBUILD
[2]:https://projects.parabola.nu/abslibre.git/tree/libre/ath9k-htc-firmware/PKGBUILD
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Mon Dec 22 21:44:57 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 22:44:57 +0100
Subject: [Dev] [ARM] Review request for a cross-compiler and linux-libre
In-Reply-To: <20141222150844.GA1640@donderklumpen.de> (Mono's message of "Mon, 
 22 Dec 2014 16:08:44 +0100")
References: <20141222150844.GA1640@donderklumpen.de>
Message-ID: <87zjaf5pgm.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> and the ability to be built by
> a cross-compiler.

It might be justified here, but can we avoid having to modify any usual
package for cross-compilation?

On mips64el we modified the arch= array, it was too much to change.  I
think this should have been done by changing libremakepkg or makepkg to
get this info from another file, to avoid merge conflicts and having to
modify files before finding that a dependency package needs building.
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From mtjm at mtjm.eu  Mon Dec 22 21:52:20 2014
From: mtjm at mtjm.eu (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82owski?=)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 22:52:20 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87egrriuix.fsf@hackers.camp> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Aur=C3=A9lien_DES?=
 =?utf-8?Q?BRI=C3=88RES=22's?= message of
 "Mon, 22 Dec 2014 16:17:10 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <F0CEA176-F1AD-47AA-95D3-9561C03FDC21@riseup.net>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
 <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home> <5495F031.605@gnu.org>
 <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home> <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org>
 <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <813E2622-10FB-47C2-B015-B9C3E7BF6C13@riseup.net>
 <87egrriuix.fsf@hackers.camp>
Message-ID: <87vbl35p4b.fsf@mtjm.eu>

> But that will get the place of new incomers without level that want to
> learn and discover computer science.

What do we do for such newcomers now?  What do they think about this
discussion and paying developers?

Does distro development as done in Parabola provide useful learning
experience for programmers/CS students interested in improving their
skills?  (Please no "yes"/"no" answers, show examples.  I don't know
what to write for people who ask how they can use their C/C++/Java/C#
skills in a free distro.)
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From aurelien at hackers.camp  Tue Dec 23 07:04:56 2014
From: aurelien at hackers.camp (=?utf-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lien_DESBRI=C3=88RES?=)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 08:04:56 +0100
Subject: [Dev] *URGENT* Proposal to organise Parabola
In-Reply-To: <87vbl35p4b.fsf@mtjm.eu> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Micha=C5=82_Mas=C5=82o?=
 =?utf-8?Q?wski=22's?= message of "Mon,
 22 Dec 2014 22:52:20 +0100")
References: <20141205184456.4af69cc2e1798a72d4c97aea@hacari.org>
 <87sigt72w5.fsf@hackers.camp> <548456FE.7040808@gnu.org>
 <878uija11x.fsf@hackers.camp> <54848813.7030104@gnu.org>
 <874mt79xrd.fsf@hackers.camp> <87zjaz8isi.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <548496B6.2050502@gnu.org> <87vbln8g8b.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <1417978251.23304.15.camel@triscel1> <87r3wb8eqg.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <877fxynlw3.fsf@hackers.camp> <5494895E.3060707@gnu.org>
 <87388a4v78.fsf@unicorn.home> <5495F031.605@gnu.org>
 <874mspvdyk.fsf@unicorn.home> <5496C806.2040109@gnu.org>
 <87egrt2k4y.fsf@hackers.camp>
 <813E2622-10FB-47C2-B015-B9C3E7BF6C13@riseup.net>
 <87egrriuix.fsf@hackers.camp> <87vbl35p4b.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <87lhlyhmnb.fsf@hackers.camp>

mtjm at mtjm.eu (Micha? Mas?owski) writes:

>> But that will get the place of new incomers without level that want to
>> learn and discover computer science.
>
> What do we do for such newcomers now?

We offer them to join to do what they want, from what we are doing to
what need to be done.

>What do they think about this discussion and paying developers?

Them to respond.

> Does distro development as done in Parabola provide useful learning
> experience for programmers/CS students interested in improving their
> skills?

Yes it very interesting to people and young generation do discover how
computer works really and involve them in Computer Sciences.

Maybe when they will become student Parabola will not be enought for
them, but maybe they will remember that Parabola have help them to enjoy
CS and bring back their own experiences.

-- 
Aurelien DESBRIERES
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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Tue Dec 23 13:22:07 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 10:22:07 -0300
Subject: [Dev] [bread@ponape.com.ar] Marie Goodwin on How to Run a Business
	in the Gift Economy
Message-ID: <87fvc6v6v4.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>


seems appropiate to change the focus on the function of money :)


ps: gift economy is a mistranslation from the essai sur le don, by
marcel mauss

-- 
}(:=


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From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Mon Dec 29 02:17:21 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 23:17:21 -0300
Subject: [Dev] [Riley Baird] [GNU-linux-libre] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD minus
	the blobs
Message-ID: <87y4prjj2m.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>


-- 
}(:=


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From: Riley Baird <orthogonal at librewrt.org>
Subject: [GNU-linux-libre] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD minus the blobs
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 10:40:48 +1100
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From blade.vp2020 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 04:45:12 2014
From: blade.vp2020 at gmail.com (Ali Abdul Ghani)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:45:12 -0800
Subject: [Dev] [Riley Baird] [GNU-linux-libre] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD
 minus the blobs
In-Reply-To: <87y4prjj2m.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
References: <87y4prjj2m.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
Message-ID: <CAHWa5ufKQVaP5+5E=000TwEW2syHpN9nSPhJC9y_PoJFP-RBMg@mail.gmail.com>

welcome
This delightful News
I have some suggestions

- Replace bsd tools to gnu tools
- Replace clang to gcc

Greetings and regards
ali abdul ghani

2014-12-28 18:17 ??????-08:00, Nicol?s Reynolds <fauno at endefensadelsl.org>:
>
> --
> }(:=
>
>
>


-- 
Think not of them, thou hast thy music too


From isacdaavid at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 08:55:03 2014
From: isacdaavid at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Isaac_David_Reyes_Gonz=C3=A1lez?=)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 02:55:03 -0600
Subject: [Dev] [Riley Baird] [GNU-linux-libre] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD
 minus the blobs
In-Reply-To: <CAHWa5ufKQVaP5+5E=000TwEW2syHpN9nSPhJC9y_PoJFP-RBMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <87y4prjj2m.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <CAHWa5ufKQVaP5+5E=000TwEW2syHpN9nSPhJC9y_PoJFP-RBMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOPS0LwOK_KeVAjuJeL9Q7M1Nf141ZRGL9AVk56MFhVt35rsRA@mail.gmail.com>

This is wonderful news, thanks for forwarding here!

I have long awaited for a fully free BSD (even if it is just to have
something to recommend or point out when BSD people claim to be
systematically excluded by Stallman, for the incorrect reasons).

In my opinion OpenBSD was the right candidate to deblob because they were
already close to Debian-like levels of freedom.

Let's hope it happens

On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Ali Abdul Ghani <blade.vp2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> welcome
> This delightful News
> I have some suggestions
>
> - Replace bsd tools to gnu tools
> - Replace clang to gcc
>
>
Certainly a harder target than just making a libre derivative. Another of
my fantasised distro whims involves making a GNU/Linux one which only
packages software under copyleft licenses, just for the sake of trolling
BSD extremists who argue the GPL is bad  :)

Greetings and regards
> ali abdul ghani
>
> 2014-12-28 18:17 ??????-08:00, Nicol?s Reynolds <fauno at endefensadelsl.org
> >:
> >
> > --
> > }(:=
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Think not of them, thou hast thy music too
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
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From lukeshu at sbcglobal.net  Mon Dec 29 20:20:41 2014
From: lukeshu at sbcglobal.net (Luke Shumaker)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 15:20:41 -0500
Subject: [Dev] [Riley Baird] [GNU-linux-libre] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD
	minus the blobs
In-Reply-To: <CAHWa5ufKQVaP5+5E=000TwEW2syHpN9nSPhJC9y_PoJFP-RBMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <87y4prjj2m.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <CAHWa5ufKQVaP5+5E=000TwEW2syHpN9nSPhJC9y_PoJFP-RBMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87oaqm438m.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>

At Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:45:12 -0800,
Ali Abdul Ghani wrote:
> welcome
> This delightful News
> I have some suggestions
> 
> - Replace clang to gcc

Well, it's based on OpenBSD, which uses clang or gcc based on the
architecture (as clang does not support all of the architectures that
OpenBSD does).  Further, the switch to clang was pretty recent.  Using
GCC probably would be pretty easy.

(to those on the gnu-linux-libre list: the original email was
forwarded to the Parabola dev list, whre a couple of other replies
happened)

--
Happy hacking,
~ Luke Shumaker


From orthogonal at librewrt.org  Mon Dec 29 20:45:06 2014
From: orthogonal at librewrt.org (Riley Baird)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 07:45:06 +1100
Subject: [Dev] [GNU-linux-libre] [Riley Baird] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD
 minus the blobs
In-Reply-To: <87oaqm438m.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
References: <87y4prjj2m.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>	<CAHWa5ufKQVaP5+5E=000TwEW2syHpN9nSPhJC9y_PoJFP-RBMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <87oaqm438m.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <54A1BD52.7050407@librewrt.org>

On 30/12/14 07:20, Luke Shumaker wrote:
> At Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:45:12 -0800,
> Ali Abdul Ghani wrote:
>> welcome
>> This delightful News
>> I have some suggestions
>>
>> - Replace clang to gcc
> 
> Well, it's based on OpenBSD, which uses clang or gcc based on the
> architecture (as clang does not support all of the architectures that
> OpenBSD does).  Further, the switch to clang was pretty recent.  Using
> GCC probably would be pretty easy.
> 
> (to those on the gnu-linux-libre list: the original email was
> forwarded to the Parabola dev list, whre a couple of other replies
> happened)

Is there any significant reason, other than the license, that gcc is
better than clang? I really don't want to deviate too much from
upstream, and as long as the license is free, I don't see a problem.

If it's about the license, I can see that OpenBSD's, or Debian's
decision of which compiler to use would be influential, and thus they
should use gcc. But LibertyBSD is not likely to be influential, so I
don't see the point in changing the default compiler.


From orthogonal at librewrt.org  Mon Dec 29 21:04:39 2014
From: orthogonal at librewrt.org (Riley Baird)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 08:04:39 +1100
Subject: [Dev] [GNU-linux-libre] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD minus the blobs
In-Reply-To: <87iogui4ip.fsf@mtjm.eu>
References: <1419827463.8303@bluehome.net> <54A0DBFE.6030100@librewrt.org>
 <87iogui4ip.fsf@mtjm.eu>
Message-ID: <54A1C1E7.2060101@librewrt.org>

On 30/12/14 07:29, Micha? Mas?owski wrote:
>>> I wonder if there is an advantage to work with the people of
>>> NuBSD [0] instead of starting another free BSD?
>> 
>> I hadn't heard of them. It seems that they're system is based on 
>> FreeBSD, though. In any case, since I've already finished making 
>> LibertyBSD, I don't see any point in not releasing it.
> 
> All NuBSD work that I know about is the wiki and an incomplete 
> deblobbing script.  (All that I currently do for NuBSD is wiki
> hosting.)
> 
> In my experience, every person interested in FSDG-freeing a BSD
> distro prefers a different BSD distro, so due to limited time of a
> single contributor no such project has enough work done to be
> posted on this list.  Yours might change this.

That's exactly what I hope. But I need the help of the free software
community for this to become a reality. You can:

1. Make a donation to 1BFQEqzhxTbvfjZ3f9eoTbeEBgJdkVcj4m
2. Buy a pre-release copy. I've already had one order, so contact me
for more details.
3. Help my submission to Slashdot be accepted:
http://slashdot.org/submission/4088331/openbsd-forked-to-remove-non-free-firmware

>> I already strongly recommend against using the ports tree.
>> However, the BSDs being what they are, a ports tree fetched two
>> weeks from now may not work on a release downloaded today.
> 
> It's the same if you mix repos for different versions of a
> GNU/Linux distro.

>From OpenBSD's FAQ, it seems to be a lot worse:
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq15.html#NoFun

>> For this reason, I would like to provide the tarball of a working
>> ports tree, such that people can work on deblobbing it if they
>> wish to do so. Otherwise, there is no hope of ever having a free
>> ports tree.
> 
> Deblobbing can be done incrementally, with scripts that adapt a
> current revision of the upstream ports tree into one compliant with
> the FSDG. This might be similar to how Parabola or Trisquel removes
> some packages and modifies the rest (with nice scripts editing
> source packages in Trisquel).

That's a good idea. But let's see if we can at least get the base
released first. :)


From isacdaavid at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 03:13:27 2014
From: isacdaavid at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Isaac_David_Reyes_Gonz=C3=A1lez?=)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 21:13:27 -0600
Subject: [Dev] [GNU-linux-libre] [Riley Baird] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD
 minus the blobs
In-Reply-To: <54A1BD52.7050407@librewrt.org>
References: <87y4prjj2m.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <CAHWa5ufKQVaP5+5E=000TwEW2syHpN9nSPhJC9y_PoJFP-RBMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <87oaqm438m.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
 <54A1BD52.7050407@librewrt.org>
Message-ID: <CAOPS0Lze86imD-Mck5O1RAeSzqjFDveJeYr19oz=SoHNwXDG5Q@mail.gmail.com>

"Better" is very broad. Most people in these lists would see the GPL as an
advantage, but none would deny that Clang or LLVM are essentially free and
compatible (maybe after some proofreading work) with the FSF's Free System
Distribution Guidelines. As much as I prefer GCC and the GNU GPL in
general, I wouldn't like to see precious efforts going to porting your
OpenBSD spinoff back to GCC before actually making it a wholly free system.
Not that I'm going to tell you how to spend your time, but getting a wholly
free BSD is obviously the real issue here.

To be honest I like the idea of staying as close as possible to upstream
OpenBSD while also meeting the FSF standards, so OpenBSD users feel
attracted to make the jump. I think this was your original intention. If
manpower is scarce, ask no more and keep Clang (assuming it doesn't need
further liberation-wise tuning). There are some points that I would like to
ask though, because your emails and website didn't clarify them for me:

How do we know beforehand that LibertyBSD is actually compliant with the
FSDG? Why are you so confident that it will make it to the FSF list? Don't
get me wrong, I don't underestimate your work and knowledge but I'm afraid
that my donation might go to a dead end. I think going a bit more technical
about what you are deblobbing and how you achieve it helps.

Assuming some trusted third party reviews your work and confirms it is
libre, how will LibertyBSD be maintained? I look at all the work that
Parabola hackers for instance undergo in order to clean up a GNU/Linux
distro that is allegedly easy to clean, and I tell myself "Hell, this is
though". Have you considered building a community? Some organisation like
the FSF might want to help you complete the crowdfunding, but then what?

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Riley Baird <orthogonal at librewrt.org>
wrote:

> On 30/12/14 07:20, Luke Shumaker wrote:
> > At Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:45:12 -0800,
> > Ali Abdul Ghani wrote:
> >> welcome
> >> This delightful News
> >> I have some suggestions
> >>
> >> - Replace clang to gcc
> >
> > Well, it's based on OpenBSD, which uses clang or gcc based on the
> > architecture (as clang does not support all of the architectures that
> > OpenBSD does).  Further, the switch to clang was pretty recent.  Using
> > GCC probably would be pretty easy.
> >
> > (to those on the gnu-linux-libre list: the original email was
> > forwarded to the Parabola dev list, whre a couple of other replies
> > happened)
>
> Is there any significant reason, other than the license, that gcc is
> better than clang? I really don't want to deviate too much from
> upstream, and as long as the license is free, I don't see a problem.
>
> If it's about the license, I can see that OpenBSD's, or Debian's
> decision of which compiler to use would be influential, and thus they
> should use gcc. But LibertyBSD is not likely to be influential, so I
> don't see the point in changing the default compiler.
> _______________________________________________
> Dev mailing list
> Dev at lists.parabola.nu
> https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev
>
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From isacdaavid at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 03:18:48 2014
From: isacdaavid at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Isaac_David_Reyes_Gonz=C3=A1lez?=)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 21:18:48 -0600
Subject: [Dev] [GNU-linux-libre] [Riley Baird] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD
 minus the blobs
In-Reply-To: <CAOPS0Lze86imD-Mck5O1RAeSzqjFDveJeYr19oz=SoHNwXDG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <87y4prjj2m.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>
 <CAHWa5ufKQVaP5+5E=000TwEW2syHpN9nSPhJC9y_PoJFP-RBMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <87oaqm438m.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>
 <54A1BD52.7050407@librewrt.org>
 <CAOPS0Lze86imD-Mck5O1RAeSzqjFDveJeYr19oz=SoHNwXDG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOPS0LzGGMNfexqtdcnhWsfaJ=F4p+YnVXG1amj9BL3fRnJ+Uw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:13 PM, Isaac David Reyes Gonz?lez <
isacdaavid at gmail.com> wrote:

> "Hell, this is though".
>

Tough I mean
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From orthogonal at librewrt.org  Tue Dec 30 03:34:20 2014
From: orthogonal at librewrt.org (Riley Baird)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 14:34:20 +1100
Subject: [Dev] [GNU-linux-libre] [Riley Baird] LibertyBSD - OpenBSD
 minus the blobs
In-Reply-To: <CAOPS0Lze86imD-Mck5O1RAeSzqjFDveJeYr19oz=SoHNwXDG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <87y4prjj2m.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>	<CAHWa5ufKQVaP5+5E=000TwEW2syHpN9nSPhJC9y_PoJFP-RBMg@mail.gmail.com>	<87oaqm438m.wl-lukeshu@sbcglobal.net>	<54A1BD52.7050407@librewrt.org>
 <CAOPS0Lze86imD-Mck5O1RAeSzqjFDveJeYr19oz=SoHNwXDG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54A21D3C.9020206@librewrt.org>

On 30/12/14 14:13, Isaac David Reyes Gonz?lez wrote:
> "Better" is very broad. Most people in these lists would see the GPL as an
> advantage, but none would deny that Clang or LLVM are essentially free and
> compatible (maybe after some proofreading work) with the FSF's Free System
> Distribution Guidelines. As much as I prefer GCC and the GNU GPL in
> general, I wouldn't like to see precious efforts going to porting your
> OpenBSD spinoff back to GCC before actually making it a wholly free system.
> Not that I'm going to tell you how to spend your time, but getting a wholly
> free BSD is obviously the real issue here.
> 
> To be honest I like the idea of staying as close as possible to upstream
> OpenBSD while also meeting the FSF standards, so OpenBSD users feel
> attracted to make the jump. I think this was your original intention. If
> manpower is scarce, ask no more and keep Clang (assuming it doesn't need
> further liberation-wise tuning). There are some points that I would like to
> ask though, because your emails and website didn't clarify them for me:

Thanks. This is exactly what I was trying to get across.

> How do we know beforehand that LibertyBSD is actually compliant with the
> FSDG? Why are you so confident that it will make it to the FSF list? Don't
> get me wrong, I don't underestimate your work and knowledge but I'm afraid
> that my donation might go to a dead end. I think going a bit more technical
> about what you are deblobbing and how you achieve it helps.

While I can't confirm for certain that LibertyBSD will make the FSF
list, I can confirm that I will try to make any changes the FSF deems
necessary.

As for what I have done in terms of deblobbing, I have:
*Removed the binary-only firmware
*Made kernel and other minor modifications to get around this
*Renamed various parts of the distribution from OpenBSD to LibertyBSD
(the uname has been kept as "OpenBSD" for compatibility reasons).

There isn't much more to it than that. I've got

> Assuming some trusted third party reviews your work and confirms it is
> libre, how will LibertyBSD be maintained? I look at all the work that
> Parabola hackers for instance undergo in order to clean up a GNU/Linux
> distro that is allegedly easy to clean, and I tell myself "Hell, this is
> though". Have you considered building a community? Some organisation like
> the FSF might want to help you complete the crowdfunding, but then what?

I expect that it will be quite easy to maintain. One release will be
provided roughly every 6 months (to track OpenBSD's release schedule).

Compared to maintaining Parabola, maintaining LibertyBSD should be easy.
OpenBSD policy forbids non-free software from going into the base
system. (Microcode is an exception to this, since OpenBSD developers do
not see it as software.) I just need to keep the diffs between OpenBSD
and LibertyBSD and slightly modify them for each new version.


From fauno at endefensadelsl.org  Wed Dec 31 12:06:38 2014
From: fauno at endefensadelsl.org (=?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=A1s?= Reynolds)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 09:06:38 -0300
Subject: [Dev] [Pierre Schmitz] [arch-dev-public] Proposal: enabling full
	ASLR on x86_64 via hardening-wrapper
Message-ID: <87wq58c9bl.fsf@endefensadelsl.org>


-- 
http://endefensadelsl.org


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